S2 EP07 - Ableism at Work | Goodbye Toby

Sara: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Out of the Office. I'm delighted to have Lauren here. Lauren, please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Lauren: Well, thanks for having me. Yes, Lauren Goldberg.

I am a disability justice advocate and social impact entrepreneur. I'm excited to be here and I'm excited to talk about all things disability with you.

Sara: Love it. I'm so excited for this episode and just so grateful that you wanted to be part of it. When we were talking in the lead up to today about this, I really valued how you kind of put together that video. There was like that Loom that you recorded. And normally I just get people to like submit like a written form. But actually it was so nice to get the content in a different format because I felt so much more like, oh, I understand what Lauren wants to talk about and what we're going to cover and, you know, everything that you'd be interested in doing. So, yeah, it was really, really great to have that kind of difference in how we approach the application.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'm, I'm discovering new tools every day, too, like new tech tech assistance tools to help deliver a message in a way that feels more accessible. So, yeah, loom is one of those.

Sara: Yeah, I need to use loom a little bit more because I feel like it's actually quite good because you can share your screen and you can talk and you can like scroll at the same time. So like I know that when I was getting my website updated, the website designer recorded scrolling through the changes they'd made and they could specifically point to things because it's always really hard when someone says this is what I've done or this is what I mean when there isn't that visual cue. So it's quite helpful to have that. So I feel like these tools have definitely, definitely gotten better over the last few years.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. And I'm like such a visual person. So I love it for that.

Sara: Talking of visual person, I was admiring your glasses earlier. And for anyone that's just listening, I would describe. Lauren has these amazing, the beautiful glasses that have different frames that you can take on and take off, which is really awesome.

Yeah, we were joking that Lauren should be sponsored by the people that make these glasses. So if they are listening, maybe this is the cue to get in touch.

Lauren: Yeah, shameless plug.

Sara: Awesome. Well, shall we get into the topic of today and talk about all things disability, talk about disability inclusive language, we're going to talk about neurodiversity and neurodivergence. There's lots of different things I think we're quite excited to cover today. The specific episode that we're looking at from the show is Goodbye, Toby, which is season four, episode 18. And a bit of a background is that Holly comes in and she's obviously being introduced to her new employees, right? She's getting to know who she'll be working with. One of the characters, Dwight, decides to play a bit of a prank on Holly and says that one of the characters, Kevin, is from this special program. And Holly's like, oh, wow, that's amazing. Like, great to see that this is what's happening. And this is being a program that's implemented in the Scranton office. But I think there's a few things, one that Dwight has played a prank, which uses ableism within it. 

Two, I think there's some discomfort around the word special as well. And then three, we'll talk about this later. But then since finding out that, you know, she thinks that Kevin is special or has an intellectual disability, she then starts to behave and treat him in this kind of infantilising way, which I guess we'll talk a little bit about later. And so before we talk about the subject area, I think probably worthwhile having like a bit of a trigger warning, because there will be phrases and terms that will bring up that are considered slurs or just ableist phrases that might be triggering. So probably worth putting that disclaimer at the start. But to put the kind of content of today into perspective, we're going to watch a short clip and then we will have a short discussion about it. So let's see what we have in store.

Clip

Have you been introduced to Kevin?

Which one's Kevin?

He's here on a special work program. He's slow, you know, in his brain.

Oh, good for you guys. 

Hi. 

Hi. I see you do. I do the numbers.

Oh, good for you. 

Hey, Kevin. 

Hi. 

Do you need some help? 

Clip ends

Sara: So quite awkward viewing, right, Lauren? 

To start with, I think we should talk about how Dwight kind of starts off this episode by talking about one of the characters as special. And I know we obviously had a conversation in the lead up to this recording about that word special. So I'll give you the platform to share a little bit about, yeah, what you what you wanted to share.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, as you can see from the clip and as you just mentioned, like Holly, who is perfectly well intentioned, approaches Kevin as if she needs to like Infantise him, patronise him. And again, I think like it's still ableist, even if it's well intentioned, right? Even if it's like, oh, I'm helping, I'm helping you. But the truth is, like as an adult, regardless of disability or not, no one really wants to be talked down to or infantised, like even this word, using this word special or slow. It's very othering, basically. Right. And disability in general. I think the experience of a lot of people who are just disabled, myself included, like have felt othered because of the way that we experience the world. We have to adapt to a world that is not designed for us. In many cases, the office being a big, a big one, the workplace being a big one. And you could say everybody is special, right? But people don't want to be special. They want to just be.

Sara: I love that. And I think that there's so many things there because they they I don't think in the entire episode they ever use the word disabled. And I think that's a huge thing when it comes to talking about disability.

Lauren: Oh, that is perfect. That is perfect. And I want to tell you why, because we're talking about treating people as infantising and the way that we talk to dogs and the way that we talk to babies is one is is often like, oh, they're so cute. Oh, like a boy, you know, like, oh, like you're so good. You know, and it's perfectly acceptable for, you know, for pets, for babies but not for grown adults regardless if you have a disability or not.

Sara: Yeah, yeah, I would. I would be so mortified if I'd ever spoken to another human being the way I speak to Casper. If I was saying to an actual human being, oh, you're such a good boy. Oh, it's you’re so good. So like that's horrible. But that is exactly what people do. It's like as soon as someone finds out someone has a disability, whether it's like, you know, an intellectual disability or not, it's suddenly like the speech becomes super slow. The pitch goes higher. And then it's like that babying voice. And it's like, what is the. I mean, I know the reason, but I think people associate disability with lack of intelligence, inability to kind of be and exist like someone without a disability when they absolutely do. But yes, I think that's like a case in point here with Holly is the the way she speaks to Kevin after finding out that potentially has a disability is really telling because that's not isolated to Holly. That happens all the time in our society, right? When people find out that someone has a disability like my mum, for example, she's deaf.

And the thing I shouldn't laugh. But when we tell people that she's deaf, they suddenly speak one louder and then a lot slower. But in a way that makes it more difficult for her to understand. So I understand taking your time and making sure you're  pronunciating. But it's like the behavior also changes. And it's so I mean, I laugh and it happens because I'm like, I've just told you she's deaf, like completely deaf. I don't think speaking any louder is actually going to help in this situation.

Then it's like they'll start to like hold her and move her around the room and do things that I'm like, she's deaf. Like she doesn't need help being sat to a table somewhere. Like she's perfectly fine to do that.

Lauren: Yeah, so I didn't know that. And I so I I'm partially deaf. And this past weekend, I did an immersion, an ASL immersion, an American sign language immersion. And it's called silent camp. So we're not using our voices. We are just using sign language. And it is meant to put for those folks who are who are learning, who are not exposed to the deaf community. It is meant to put you in a situation that can be uncomfortable because so many people with disabilities, like maybe different communication needs or neurodivergent and like process information differently. I've experienced some of that discomfort.

I was like existing in a world that again wasn't, wasn't designed for you. And yeah, so it was just so like so fascinating. And this is my third year doing it. And, you know, it's it's working on my sign language skills, but it's it's also a reminder that like so often when we don't understand or we don't try to understand somebody else's needs and pretend to know what we know what their needs are, it's kind of what Holly's doing, right?

You're putting yourself in a more uncomfortable situation rather than just asking what is it that would help you in this situation? How can I how can I best accommodate you? And being able to like let people advocate for themselves and and tell you what they need as opposed to assuming that you know what's best for them.

Sara: And I think that goes back to the infantilising point as well, like assuming what someone needs. Again, you're putting this idea out there and this this maybe internalised belief that disabled people can't choose for themselves or make decisions for themselves about how they need their needs met. And it's not that, you know, people with disabilities have complicated, specific needs like that differ for non-disabled people. We all have needs like right. 

Lauren: Right. 

Sara: It's the mental human fact that we all have different needs based on who we are as individuals. I don't know if this is the same in the US, but in the UK, we have special needs schools. They're called special educational needs schools now. And they've shortened it to like S.E.N. because I think they've started to learn that using the term special is probably not the most appropriate in this in this way. But it goes to show like there's nothing special about those needs. And I think that's that again, it's just that depending on someone's disability or not a disability, we all have those those unique needs depending on who we are and what's going on for us in that moment in time. But as you're talking, it made me think about disability. And you were saying how the world is not built for certain people in mind right.

And I was talking to someone before about disability and they were talking about, you know, how amazing it is to see babies get the cochlear implant like they can they can hear again or can hear. And I was saying, oh, you know, it is really wonderful for some. But like there's been studies to show that it can be incredibly painful and quite traumatic for some people, but also again, pushing the narrative that potentially that someone with a disability needs to be fixed. And so I was thinking about that medical versus social model of disability because the medical model is very much right Someone has a disability. We need to fix it. We need to like do everything we can to make them like normal. And I'm using quotation marks in that because what does normal mean? But then the social model is about understanding that people aren't disabled. They're disabled by those barriers that exist within our society. So as you were saying, the society and the infrastructure around us is built with only non-disabled people in mind. Disabled people are an afterthought.

So it's not that the problem is with disabled people. It's actually with the systems and structures that we're trying to navigate around and not success. It's not built for everyone.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, as you say, that it reminds me of, you know, other ways that characters with disabilities are portrayed in mainstream media, mainstream storytelling. And oftentimes the storyline is the challenge that they're trying to overcome their disability or they're framing the disability as the thing to overcome. And I think we as disabled people, we internalise that as as ableism. That's thinking that we are a problem that needs to be fixed, that people in wheelchairs are just like all of their effort to go into trying to walk again. And there are so many instances of that, like in movies and with the triumphant music, like, oh, this person who couldn't walk is like able to walk again. And it's it's it's, you know, one of many examples. But having the storyline or having the character, the character with disabilities, like be the one who is either infantised or villainised or the story that they're telling is what was me I have a I have a disability. Those those like those get absorbed. Like there aren't enough disabled storytellers and writers and producers out there.

And the ones who who are and those stories that are going mainstream, you'll see are demonstrating instances of ableism and are saying, no, actually, the challenge, the biggest challenge for us is the discrimination is the underrepresentation and the underestimation. And that's what's really painful is actually other people's judgments on us. So I just think there really needs to be so much more of that in mainstream storytelling.

Sara: Yeah, I think growing up in the media, in television, it was it was always portrayed as, you know, they're broken. And it was like this this hero trope of this this nondisabled person helping a disabled person. And it's like this most incredible thing. And then there's also the aspect of, yeah, as you were saying, the villainization or, you know, vilifying. And it's always it's always someone with a disability. Or I think they did some studies recently about facial disfigurements and actually consistently when we look at media and television, the villains always have some form of facial disfigurement. And so there's that now association with differences and is that that contribute to how people are treated in everyday society.

Lauren: Yes, yes, actually, yeah. That is, you know, like I already knew that to some extent, but like to hear you say that it's just like, oh, God, it's just it's like feels like a pit in my stomach that that's that that's the case. And actually, a really good book that I recommend is Sitting Pretty by Rebecca Taseg. And she writes about this in her book. You know, she talks about her own lived experience as somebody in a wheelchair navigating the world, but also like what she has studied in her PhD program and teaching to high schoolers about the way that disability in our bodies are portrayed in mainstream storytelling and in the world.

Sara: I think that's so key because growing up, I think there was some element of privilege, if that's the right word, about, you know, me growing up with a mum with a disability and navigating spaces with her being deaf and learning sign language. Because I think at a young age, being exposed to disability made it quite normal for me, if that makes sense, like it was just an everyday part of life wasn't anything to really kind of think about, to be honest.

And I think that's what's so beautiful about young people and children, because they're quite inquisitive and curious about the world around them. They learn by seeing and doing and kind of, you know, absorbing their environment and I can't remember who was telling the story, but a lot of the times when kids go up and see someone in a wheelchair or someone that has a disability, they'll obviously like ask their parents or whoever's looking after them, what's going on there? And the adult will immediately be like, shh, shh, like, don't don't talk about it. Don't look at it. Like, don't do anything. Like, become super awkward and super weird about it all. And I get that that person wants to not other that disabled person and being like pointed at and being on the spotlight because of their disability. But I think there's also that flip of your educating and embedding this thought into a young person. That disability is something to be avoided. It's like an awkward thing. It's like, oh, my God, don't look. Turn away. 

Lauren: Yeah. Ashamed of. 

Sara: Yeah, something to be ashamed of. And I think we stigmatise disability. And that's why in this show, I think is so transparent and what happens in society because people don't say disabled. People don't say disability because they're almost like there's so much shame and fear about saying it, but they'll say special. They'll say like differently abled. They'll say all of these euphemisms. They'll say every other word possible than the word disabled. And there's nothing in my mind. There's nothing wrong with just saying disabled. Like it's not a dirty, dirty word.

Lauren: And actually, like, you know, in the US, we are a legally protected class. Of people as if we identify it with the disability. So like disability is like the legal It's the legal term. You know, I'm not saying that all legal terms are politically correct, either, but language is always changing, right? But I think that is a an important point that like disability is not a bad word. And I have taken on an identity as a disabled person with pride. It  took me a while to get there because I had to unpack all of this other stuff that we're talking about right now. You know, as a deaf person, I have chosen to wear hearing aids. Everybody does. I operate mainly in a, you know, in a hearing world. So assistive technology has has helped me. Not all deaf people choose to. But hearing aids have also been designed to be discreet and hidden. And my hearing aids are pink.

And I've decorated the tube with a like colourful, like spiral decoration. And I cut my hair short and wear big earrings because I actually want people to see my ears. I want people to know that my disability and my assistant technology is a normal part of my life and my day. And it's something that I'm happy to talk about. I'm glad to talk about it. And I'm glad if somebody asks me about it. So, again, that may not be the case for everybody because of the stigma, because of the mainstream messaging. And I think that's actually one of the great things about The Office, though. You know, you could say like, oh, the office, the humor is dated, but it's actually revealing. It's breaking the glass on a lot of things that are unfortunately socialised in our in our mainstream society.

And, you know, you could look at Michael Scott as like as an awful person for saying some of the things that he says. And yet a lot of the things that he's saying are what people have been taught to believe. So like it's it's yeah, I think it's breaking the glass for a lot of people in that way.

Sara: Absolutely. And I think it because I know that people I've said this in previous episodes that like Mindy Carlin, for example, she says that if The Office was made today, it wouldn't have aired because, you know, it would just be kind of counseled essentially by woke the woke agenda and all that kind of stuff. She didn't say those specific words, but I'm inferring kind of what she kind of meant by what she said. And I always think one, I love the show, which is funny as a D.E I. consultant but it's because when not all episodes, but for the majority, we're not laughing at the minoritised person. We're not laughing at the person who maybe is the butt of the joke that Michael Scott is saying. We're always kind of laughing or cringing or feeling awkward about the really inappropriate, potentially illegal like behavior that's happening in that office workplace. And so it shines a light on, you know, we can all think to ourselves, there's a Michael Scott that I've worked with in the past or I have worked with a Michael Scott or I've worked with someone like, you know, one of the other characters which just makes I guess brings a light to the fact that actually should we be operating and working in a workplace that has someone like Michael Scott as a leader? Maybe not.

Which is which is really interesting. And just to go back to what you're saying about, you know, being proud of your disability and I didn't know that you could actually design your hearing aids now because my mum hated her as growing up and it was like this, like I guess you would say like a nude colour because I guess the idea for was to try and make it match skin colors. But she she she despised them. She wears them now, which is great. But yeah, it's really cool that you can you can design them. I would have loved to have like drawn them in. Can you? Yeah, can we see? Oh, they're so pretty. Oh, I love that. I need to show my mum. So my mum loves like, can you get them with like designs and stuff or just is it just colours?

Lauren: So mostly just colours. Yeah. But I I mean, I would love if hearing aid companies were like, you know, would take it a step further and like make different design shapes and things that made hearing aids more interesting, like the way that we've made glasses a part of our fashion. I would love that for hearing aids and the spiral decoration that I put on the front is is something that I that I put on, so I switched the colours and yeah, change it with my my outfit, change with my mood, change with my season.

Sara: Change it with the glasses.

Lauren: Yes, exactly. That's exactly it. That's exactly. And I have found that getting dressed in the morning is more is a more delightful experience because of that.

Sara: Love that.

Lauren: And I actually want to go back to something that you that you were saying about watching the show, watching the watching The Office as the D.E.I consultant and the lens that you're sort of like watching it through. And so I've watched it. I've watched the show a few different times in my life and most recently have been watching it with having been exposed to more of the disability justice movement and like learning about other forms of neurodivergence and I think having a greater

acceptance of my own disabilities and my own neurodivergence, having ADHD, having dyslexia. Like as I'm watching the show this most recent time through I find that I'm actually able to relate to the character so much more because I'm like

I'm pretty sure that, you know, I'm pretty sure that this character is neurodivergent too. They have some kind of form of neurodivergence and I don't support like going around and diagnosing people like you know, but for the purposes of entertainment and interpreting these characters it has actually made me more compassionate towards these characters, watching it through the lens of like this office is just made up of neurodiverse people and like I kind of get it. I kind of get like why that person reacted that way or why they said that ridiculous thing and like yeah, so that's been that's been like kind of a fun lens through which to watch the show.

Sara: When we spoke about this very topic in the lead up to today, I remember thinking to myself, actually, let me rewatch some of the episodes and let me look at it with that kind of lens. And it's probably worthwhile for our listeners if we just quickly maybe just share what Neurodiversity and Neurodivergence means.

So Neurodiversity kind of relating to the fact that we all have very unique ways that our brains operate. So in any context, we're all neurodiverse and Neurodivergent meaning that someone's kind of brain patterns or brain patterns. So Neurodivergent meaning someone's brain operates in a way that maybe society wouldn't depict as like the typical normal way when I say again in quotation marks because what is normal again, it seems like there's a thread there that comes up. But you know Neurodivergent relating to people that maybe have that are Autistic, have ADHD,OCD, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, things like that is what we mean by Neurodivergent. But yeah, looking through that show with that lens was quite, it actually made me empathise with some of the characters in particular.

And I'm gonna say I do think potentially there's some code, I know we said we don't want to diagnose, but Michael Scott, the manager, I think he potentially has ADHD and there's a lot of similarities that I see in how he behaves in the office that I'm like, "Ah, that seems like something I would struggle with too." Or something that I would maybe have happened because I have ADHD.

But yes, I feel like looking at the office, but we can also apply that lens to other shows. I feel like there's so much now that we understand about ADHD, Autism, that we're picking up things from many years ago in shows that we used to watch and our comfort shows. And actually they're making more sense why they were comfort shows because they actually depicted a part of ourselves that maybe we didn't see in other shows or other ways.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah, totally. And so as I'm watching the show again, I am realizing that I relate to Jim, the character of Jim the most, who I also interpreted as somebody who might have ADHD. But ADHD can look different in different people, right?

Sara: Yea.

Lauren: And some of the things that like kind of set that off for me was just that he was easily distracted. He was always talking to Pam or like distracted by Dwight. He was incredibly creative and had these elaborate pranks that he would do on Dwight. And I was like, he has got to go into hyper focus mode in order to pull off a prank like that before work or after work. Because again, they're just so elaborate and there's like got to be so many steps to pull those up. And then being impulsive. Like pretty much every sort of romantic gesture that he does in the show is like super impulsive, right? He kisses Pam without warning. He proposes to her, sorry to, you know, for spoilers. 

Sara: It's in this very episode that he does that.

Lauren: Yeah. He was like, I bought a ring for her. Like in, you know, the week that we started dating, like proposed to her at the gas station on plans. Like literally like all of the things that are romantic gestures are like, he's being impulsive. And then

like the final kind of like cherry on top of that whole, like, again, the way that I was interpreting his actions were as ADHD was when he was at the Michael Scott's and Jan's condo and they're in Jan's candle room and he's like, he can't even be in the room. He's having like sensory sensitivities. And I was like, I literally like I would be the same way. I would not be able to like, I can't handle like very strong perfumey smells and like under now understand that that is like a sensory overload for me. And so I was like, Jim's experiencing sensory overload because he has ADHD.

Like again, just like, you know, to go along with what you were saying, like watching now, I'm like, I can, I could totally understand and empathise with the characters and like how and why their reactions are reacting to certain things.

Sara: For me with Michael Scott, the reason that I think I relate to him and kind of maybe project this ADHD kind of element on him is he has like this extreme demand avoidance, which I completely relate to. So any time that there is a demand requested on him, like there's one time where all he needs to do is to sign this piece of paper. Literally one tiny signature and he procrastinates all day. And I think it's the episode where he queues up for pretzels. He's like, and he wants all of the sugar, like all of the toppings possible on this pretzel. And in my head, I'm thinking I would do the exact same. So my ADHD, I really struggle with demand avoidance. Like if that even if it could be the smallest task and I would it would be so painful to even think about doing it. And I was like relating to Michael Scott in that moment and then him going for a pretzel. I have done that where I'm procrastinating and then I'll go and get bubble tea and I will get the sugariest drink ever. And then I'll still have all these other drinks on my table, but it's like something to do. And I know there's association with like sugar and sweet and the dopamine hit that comes from that, which I find really, really fascinating. And I was looking at the clock just now and I realise that that time has flown by because I feel like we've covered a lot. But also I feel like we barely scratched the surface.

Lauren: I know. I know. 

Sara: There's just so much to talk about with this show, especially with with disability. Obviously, before we wrap up, is there is there anything else you kind of want to mention that's come up from the show, whether it's about disability activism, Neurodiversity, Neurodivergence that maybe we didn't quite get a chance to talk about throughout their recording?

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, one of the main points, especially for workplaces, is just being able to recognise that everybody has different needs. Everybody has different ways that they interpret the world and that they process information and like being willing to work with those and like seeking understanding rather than assuming. And I think just I think just seeking an understanding I think is probably like one of the key things that we can do in a workplace, recognising that everybody is different. Our brains are neurodiverse and the more we like understand and have compassion towards, you know, towards each other, the better workplaces are going to be for everyone.

Sara: 100%. Yeah. Thank you. Before I let you go, there is a question that I'm asking all of my guests at the end. In the show, Michael Scott has a mug that he's bought himself that says World's Best Boss.vSo, Lauren, if you were to buy yourself a World's Best Something mug, what would what would yours say?

Lauren: Mine would say dance floor firemaker.

Sara: Goodness. Explain. I love this.

Lauren: I just I, I have been guests at weddings, where strangers come up to me and say you are the MVP of the dance floor. Right. Or like or somebody saying like you have the best air guitar performance I've ever seen like they're just like, you know, I'm just out out there having fun. If there's music playing, I am moving to it. And so that's like, that's kind of like regardless of whether it's an event or like my everyday life. And I think this is actually part of my ADHD is if I'm doing anything like the dishes or anything that's kind of like a boring activity. If music isn't on, I am there's music playing in my head, and I'm probably moving to it. So, so either like dance floor creator or dance floor firemaker.

Sara: Incredible. I love that. Every every wedding needs someone like you because there's always that like awkward moment where like the music started and everyone's thinking like, oh, do I go up? Do I not go up? And you just need that one person with that fire energy to just get the people going.

Lauren: Yes, I will happily be the first person on the dance floor. The last person on the dance floor, the only person on the dance floor. I'm happy to be that person. I like, I just find so much joy in movement. And I think that like spreading that joy is something that I like, I take pleasure in. So yeah.

Sara: Beautiful. And Lauren, this has been really, really lovely. Thank you for taking the time out to to share your insights and to speak to me on all things disability and neurodiversity. And I'm sure our listeners will want to find out more about your work and how they can get in touch with you. So how do they do that?

Lauren: Yeah, so I have a coaching practice. I work with folks who are looking to just better understand their own needs and advocate for themselves, especially during career transitions, leadership transitions or building small businesses. So you can get in touch with me at laurengoldbergcoaching.com. I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm also on Instagram, Lauren Goldberg at Lauren Goldberg Coaching.

And yeah, you know, talking about disability justice on there. I'm talking about, you know, I'm sending out emails looking at workplaces and self advocacy, self accommodation through a disability justice lens. So if you're interested in learning more about that, I'd love to have you in my circle, my community. 

Sara: Amazing. Love it. Thank you, Lauren. And thank you to all our listeners. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And I feel like, yeah, there probably might be a part two with Lauren because I feel like there's so much more we can definitely talk about because it's a big, big, meaty topic. So, yeah, catch you in the next episode. Thanks, everyone.