EP07 - Grief Counselling

Welcome to Out of the Office, a podcast exploring the lessons we can learn from the TV show The US Office on ensuring our workplaces are diverse and inclusive. I'm Sara Chandran, the founder of Fresh and Fearless, a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultancy.

For each of these episodes, I'll invite a guest to dive into the world of Dunder Mifflin to examine specific episodes, and essentially learn what we can do differently to respect diversity, foster inclusion, and create a positive work environment. Whether you're a fan of the office or just interested in learning more about creating a more inclusive workplace, this podcast is for you. So grab your favourite Dundee Award and tune in to Out of the Office. Today, we're focusing on season three, episode four, Grief Counseling. In this particular episode, Michael Scott is overcome with grief when he learns about the death of his former boss, Ed Truck. Michael then spends the rest of the day attempting grief counselling for the rest of the team. And today, I have an extremely wonderful guest and friend joining me to talk through this episode, DeMario Bell. DeMario, please come and say hello and introduce yourself to our listeners.

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Hi, Sara. It's so nice to be here out of the office. It's amazing. I mean, given the conversation that we're gonna be talking about today,

DeMario Bell. He / Him Pronouns. I'm based out of California in the United States and just really, really happy to be here and really happy to be diving into this conversation.

Absolutely. I'm excited for what we kind of discussed because I think we've had conversations here and there about grief and our own personal experiences. And I think there's just so much scope for us to kind of unpack this in a really meaningful way that I think a lot of people will maybe hopefully connect to and resonate with, particularly just on a personal level, but I think also in the workplace, because I think that's really important. How does grief unfold, you know, in those professional kind of circumstances? Because it feels very different in a workplace setting compared to like with friends and personal situations. So yeah, I'm looking forward to how we go through this subject. But before we do that,

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I have an icebreaker question that I always ask my guests. So in the show, Michael Scott, infamously has this mug called the World's Best Boss mug that he actually bought himself, which I find absolutely hilarious.

So I'm asking all my guests if you bought yourself World's Best Something mug, what would yours say?

The World Best Smile.

Oh, I love that. Yes, you do have the best smile.

I hope I can say that about myself.

Absolutely, I'm so here for people like complimenting themselves in that way, because you know, if you have a good smile, recognise it, it just shares some joy.

What did you choose as yours, the World's Best? 

You know, you're the second person on this series to ask me that and it's hilarious because I actually haven't thought. I think I would say I'm the World's Best Podcast host.

Yes.

Yeah, I like the thing that each episode I've just like learnt more and more and I've just kind of explored the concept of doing a podcast and yeah, I just love it. I love just one, talking about The Office because it's like my favourite show in the world. And then two, inviting all my friends to just come and talk about it with me and also forcing them to watch the show. That's like my favourite thing. - I won't share which category I fell into, but I'm excited for the convo. - Yeah, you've not seen The Office before, have you really, or have you? - You know what, Sara, I haven't been an enthusiast like my friends and like you.

I've seen like a few episodes, I will say. I've definitely seen a few episodes, including the one that we're gonna be talking about today. But if you were to ask me, DeMario, like about every season within The Office, I would probably hide. But I definitely know the show and appreciate the show, very similar to the show community as well, which is somewhat similar. 

Yeah, I think I have a bit of a surprise. I'm actually gonna do a bit of a pop quiz on The Office.

Uh-oh. 

I'm joking, I'm joking, don't worry. I'm gonna put you on the spot like that if someone that doesn't know should play that well.

(laughing) But I think that's quite about, oh, sorry, go on, DeMario. 

No, I was gonna just quickly say, we're probably gonna say the same thing. So let me not take the light. But I will say, what I do appreciate about The Office and what I have seen is that just at a meta-level, sorry, there is some relevance to what we experienced in the workplace to some degree. And so I really do think, and I think it's like a mockumentary. I think that it does in a way have some realism to it, so. 

Yeah, it feels like a very exaggerated version of the workplace, but there's so many things that go in there that are so relatable. And the reason they're so relatable is because we've been in those situations. We've had managers and colleagues like those that are in The Office. And there are moments where we can't help but love those characters. But there's also moments where we're like, oh, I hate working with these people.

(laughing) - Yes, 100%, yes.

So let's dive into the episode then and start talking about all things grief, which is definitely not the lightest topic, but I think an important topic nonetheless. 

So in the episode, Michael, the first thing that we kind of noticed is he obviously gets a phone call from Jan from the head office saying that their former boss and truck had died. And then Michael Scott, kind of walks out into the main office space and announces it kind of without warning to the team. And I feel like that's kind of the first thing I'm gonna talk about because that took me by surprise in the sense that he didn't go around and tell what people one by one or take people to the side and say, this could have been a colleague they previously worked with or know of, this person sadly died or passed away. And even if people didn't know him, I think sometimes hearing about somebody's death can actually be potentially triggering for your own personal grief and people that you've lost in your life.

So I feel like in this particular scenario, when we tell somebody that maybe a colleague has died or a former boss has died, in my opinion, it's important to set it up in a safe way that it's not a complete shock to people and that we're like setting people up so it's not a potentially kind of triggering an upsetting situation.

Yeah, I agree with you, Sara, and what every manager or managers in general, when I think about Michael, who is a manager in this case, who don't know how to talk about grief or handle sharing the news about, not even grief, but just loss in the workplace. And so when that happened, for me, it was emblematic of, if you were in that situation, what to do. And to your point, there is a way to do that where it's not jarring to folks and you're creating a space for people to be able to internally process that news. I don't know that a big announcement in the office is the best way to do that, but I've seen, sadly to say worse than that. 

Yeah, I feel like in that situation, it's almost like Michael Scott wants to be the very first person to tell everybody, like it's the hot news and that needs to be told to everybody and it's like, this is about somebody that has died and it just feels like it's completely taken into a world of it being about Michael and Michael Scott's kind of wanting to be the centre of attention. He utilises somebody else's death for that reason and it's such a shame because one, people might care about that particular person. And if we think about workplaces of today, a manager might want to tell everybody because they think it's their position and their role as the leader and a manager that, oh, I need to tell people that a colleague has died or someone formerly that used to work here has passed away.

And yes, that's kind of part of your role, but I think there's ways to manage that kind of more carefully and with that person in mind, it's a delicacy to deal with.

100%, and I love that you touch on humanity because I think that is what's, that was missing to your point, that the focal point shifted.

And I think when I, you know, I work for an HR software company and we focus on employee experience. And you know, one of the things that I'm often thinking about is the humanity at work and how HR teams are enabling their organisations to be able to talk about, start conversations like this around loss and grief and to support those who are delivering the news.

And so I definitely think that the tone in which Michael said, you know, in making the announcement was that of just like confusion and chaos, which is obviously what an organisation doesn't want to have during moments like this. Now I can go down a tangent around this part here, but I don't want to derail it from the rest of the show, but maybe there are a lot of things that we could just pull from this particular moment here. And then it's, you know, we also have to explore the relationship that Michael had with Ed Truck, you know, which wasn't always the best as well. And so there's a lot of just like things there between that relationship between the two, you know, which could have influenced how Michael, you know, shared this news as well.

Absolutely. It makes me think about a particular instance when my nan died, and this was many, many years ago, and I was working at an agency and they handled it fairly well, you know, things can always be improved and be better.

But at the time it was like the first person in my family that had died. So this was kind of my initial experience of experiencing grief and navigating that, particularly in a workplace dynamic. And I remember speaking to my line manager about it and disclosing it to the leaders of the agency that I worked at.

And I remember when I came back into the office, maybe like a week later or a few days later, and one of my colleagues just randomly came up to me and was like, "I'm really sorry to hear about your nan." Just like really randomly, I was like going to the sink to get a glass of water, and suddenly this is what someone has said to me. And it really took me off guard. And I know that that person meant it, you know, they were coming from a well-intentioned perspective, but it really surprised me because one, I didn't think anyone would know because I'd only disclosed it to essentially two or three people. But obviously this individual that was my colleague was also a leader, so I'm assuming they had wider conversations about why I wasn't in the office. So that's kind of expected. But yeah, I just then suddenly felt at odds. And I was like, "Oh, this is, I don't want to say triggering because that's quite a strong term to use." But it felt quite upsetting. And I had to like kind of take myself aside and just kind of reflect on, because I guess I was just putting on a mask. And I was like, "Right, I'm back in the office, put your mask back on and get to work." But then suddenly somebody kind of re-invited that information into my brain. I was like, "Oh yeah, my nan's not here anymore." And it was really hard to navigate.

Can I quickly ask, Sara, why did upset come up for you in that moment?

I think maybe I wasn't expecting anyone to ask me. - Okay. - Yeah, I don't know, I don't know actually. It's a good question. Yeah, I think one, not expecting people to ask me. Two, because I think maybe there was that in my head, I was under the impression there was that sense of trust. You know, I had a circle of people that knew this information. I didn't anticipate it’d get outside of that. Because actually it took me a really long time when I think back to tell anybody that my nan was dying from cancer. And so it was only up until right at the last minute when she was about to die that I actually told my line manager and I said, "I have to go to Ireland. I have to go and see my nanny." And that's how it kind of unfolded. And then of course my nan didn't die for like three, four weeks after that. And I was like, "I thought you were about to die."

So then my office was like, "What are you doing? What do you mean you're going back out there?" I was like, "I swear, she's not well." But yeah, maybe seeing me perked her up for a couple more weeks, who knows?

No, I appreciate you sharing that. Sorry to hear of your loss, of your nan. It can seem jarring and unsettling when you do share something as intimate as a loss with your manager and it does get out before you're able to share that news. And I look at that in one of two ways. On the one end, well, I'm assuming well-intentioned and we don't know the conversation that we're had, but on the one end, it's wanting folks to understand the moment that you're navigating and wanting to maybe have folks extend grace during that period. On the other end, it's back to that enablement piece.

How was that manager supported and enabled by HR teams who set these policies and protocols on how to support their teams through loss and grief? How would they tow? Was this a clinical process for them? Because when you talk about grief in the workplace, it's uncomfortable, just bottom line, it's uncomfortable. I was talking with someone, I'm sorry, last week about how we, largely speaking, when we're talking about new life or expanding families, that conversation is different. That support looks differently in the workplace. On the other end of that, when we talk about the loss of life or grieving and whatever form that comes, people tense up. And it's people fear of saying the wrong thing and I'm not criticizing it at all. I'm stating what my experience has been, people tense up.

And managers in particular think about how do I support my teammate during this time? Or there's some managers, it's just standard for them, here's the SOP around bereavement, let me know how I can support. And then it's just like, is that it? Is that all you're going to give me? So they're going to take it back to the episode. There are definitely some dots that we can connect. And I think a number of us have experienced a manager like Michael in some ways, because even deeper down in the episode, even just some of the things that Michael does, like with the whole brief counseling session, which we'll get into, it was weird, you know, and it was just like... - It was weird. - It was like, what is going on here? But no, it's... Thank you. Let me just say thank you for sharing that. 

Of course. Now, I think it's really helpful to share these stories because I hope that it kind of brings down barriers for other people to open up about these things, because as you were saying, I do believe, especially in the Western part of the world, there is this... I don't know if stigma is the right word, but this lack of wanting to talk about death and when somebody has died. And, you know, it's just this like, oh, no, it's awkward. I want to talk about that. Like, it's really difficult. But for other cultures, death is something that's openly talked about. People regularly talk about what they want to have happen and what, you know, my grandma always talks about what her next life is going to be and how she's going to spend that. She's like convinced me that she's going to find my granddad. My granddad... He died in 2020, but my grandma's still alive. And she's like, I'm going to find him and I'm going to marry him again. But I'm going to be the man this time and he's going to be the woman. And I'm going to make him do everything. And I'm like, this is very hilarious. Already planning out your next life. How have you faced this one? You’re now talking about the next one.

Love it. I love it. Oh, my goodness. I love it. It is. You chose the right word. There is this stigma, you know, Sara. in the Western world to talk about, you know, grief and in the workplace. And, you know, I will share this with you and forgive me for going on tangents. Like, I love conversations and I love tangents.

Me too. Please do so! 

Thank you.

Similar to you, I've experienced loss of a loved one. And I was working and had to get through that. This time last year, I lost a sister of mine, which was just... which just broke my heart, honestly, Sara. in a million little pieces and having to get through that. And I say that for a couple of reasons. I was not going to share at work that I was going through this.

A, I didn't feel safe, but it wasn't because the organization made me feel unsafe. It was just that it was such a vulnerable piece of my life that I didn't want to share with colleagues.

And then the second piece of that, how I ended up sharing was because I was trying to understand our bereavement policy, which was a little unclear to me around the number of days I'm allotted for bereavement. And so I ended up having to tell my people leader, who does not live in the Western world, who lives on the other side of the globe in Melbourne, and Sara. It was the most beautiful moment that I could have experienced from a people leader.

Because prior to that call, I didn't share with them what I wanted to meet with them about. But in that conversation, my people leader cried more than I did in that call, and I did a lot of crying in that call. But I felt so heard and seen and simply put, I remember her saying, she said to DeMario, she said, you take as much time as you need, the work will always be here. So however long you need to get yourself together, you do that. And it took the pressure of thinking about work. And as you can attest, like, Sara., when you lose a loved one, and especially a close loved one, it almost feels like everything else around you just goes off into the void. And it's just like you're trying to make sense of what's happening.

And so it was hard trying to navigate that. But it felt good to have a people leader who I could go to, and I'd share with her, this is news, I only want to keep between the immediate team, which was four of us, because I wanted to share publicly if I chose to at another time. But another situation, Sara, that wasn't my experience where I've told people leaders that I've experienced loss, and it's been clinical. And what I mean by that is just been very formulaic, and you get back to work and you're trying to focus, and work is still the last thing that's on your mind.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And I'm so grateful that you have that people leader at such an important moment, and that's such a vulnerable moment to support you through that, because it does change the outcome so much in terms of how you process and how you get through that kind of difficulty.

And yeah, I just think it can be the simplest of kind of sentences that someone can say to you, and they can have the most profound impact in terms of taking that weight off your shoulders, and you being able to just almost like collapse into your grief and go, oh my God, this is what's happening. And that's the way the healing starts, when you're able to kind of switch off from the machine of work and actually lean into the fact that this really horrible thing has just happened, and it's heartbreaking.

And we need to feel that we need to be in that to kind of get through it, because sometimes,  we can,I did it, and when my granddad died, we lean more into work, because you're like, right, just gonna have to power through and make sure that everything's gonna be okay. And then suddenly you start crying at the random things, like Blair was in the car, Blair's my partner, and he switches on cruise control, and I just start sobbing. And he's like, what's going on? And it's because my granddad used to have a Jaguar, and he used to always wonder what the cruise control button was for. And it was in that moment when Blair put the cruise control on, and I was like, oh, I'm thinking about part of and the, cruise control.

Yeah, no, just you talking about that people leader, you know, as much as I had that particular experience, my line manager at the time, she was wonderful, because she said something very similar to me. And she was like, you take all the time you need, like, this is your moment to say goodbye to your nan. And I can't imagine how you must feel. So just do what you need to do. And I was so grateful for that, because actually, that was my very first time going through grief. And I didn't know what was expected of me, because no one gives you a handbook of Okay, someone has died, here's what you do. And it's like, no, there's none of that information. It's so individual, it's so unique. And sometimes you need that, that mentor and that person around you to go, hey, I validate your feelings, it's okay for you to just switch off and kind of accept and realize that you've lost someone that you love.

So many things. So many things are coming up. Your first loss as an adult in the workplace, I really do think that it is hard, and it can be traumatizing. And to your point, there's no manual on how to deal with it. And we all know that grief and loss is the recovery is not a linear process. And it's, it's hard. I mean, that's a simple word. But that's the best way that I can describe it. It's hard. I've experienced loss in the workplace more than once. This, I would this is my third time that I've experienced in the workplace. And each time, I look back and I'm just like, like you mentioned, I've poured myself into work. You know, work has had been that solace to me. A couple of years ago, I lost an uncle tragically. And I, crazy story there, I ended up was supposed to start a new job, Sara, and ended up not even ended up reneging on it. And staying at my former organization, because there was no way that I could grieve and try to onboard to a new job. I said that would be too much for me. And then a couple of weeks before that actually found out what the news that I had lost a family member and got to work and colleagues were talking about it because they had thought on the news. And so that was hard when you have when you have a loss like that, that makes the news and it's the topic of work. So and not in a in a mocking way, but in a way where people want to show support and compassion.

Yeah, that that support and compassion is so important. And it kind of leads me on to this kind of next topic I wanted to talk about because, you know, there's there's people that have been through it. And I feel like sometimes that lends you a lens into the world to know what to do when you know somebody else is going through it. I feel like it kind of equips you a little bit more about how to speak to somebody and lend that support and compassion. But when my granddad died, and my granddad means the world to me, my business fresh and fearless would not exist without thatha, he is the first entrepreneur I had ever met. He like invested in spirulino and had like this brand way before spirulina was like a whole superfood green thing. And he was always like a head of the curve. But he gave it up before it became like super popular. And I was like, No, you could have been rich. My life could have been different. But yeah, no, so he died in 2020.And it was very, very unexpected. In the sense of it was right when the pandemic had started as well. And I remember being very nervous knowing that, you know, it was impacting older folks, you know, a lot more than younger folks. So I was constantly worried about my grandparents being as safe as possible. And then my granddad had a stomach issue and he went into hospital and I was like, Oh, no, like, this is what's gonna happen. He's gonna get COVID and he's gonna die, like start to catastrophize it. He ended up coming home and he was absolutely fine. And I was like, Oh, cool. And he just needed a minor surgery, but they delayed it because of COVID.(...) And so I remember talking to my friends and people about it. And everyone was really loving like sending their love , I remember posting on Instagram and socials and everyone was like, praying for your granddad.

And then my granddad then died because he went back into hospital. And it was just it all kind of fell apart after he went in the second time. And I remember being like, Oh, I'm back the first time, you know, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And then it was like, no, it's not going to be fine. And so he went in and said, our goodbye. And my final moments with my granddad, I will share this story because it means the world to me. And I love sharing it. And we were all in the hospital and my grandma hadn't kind of slept or showered for about an entire day. And bless her, she's an old woman and, you know, she can't stand for very long periods of time. But she was massaging on my granddad for hours because she was like, I think in her head, not kind of come to terms with the fact that he was on his end of life kind of journey.

Anyway, so I sent her home. I sent her home with my aunt and my partner, Blair drove them home. So I was alone in the hospital with my granddad. And I was just sat there like, What do you say to somebody that's just like lying there? Like, it's really, it's a really weird, weird experience.And so I just started talking really randomly. And I was just like, Hey, thatha. you know, don't worry about anything, you know, I'm gonna look after Paati, which means grandma, and I'm gonna take her to this bridge in Amsterdam, it's going to be really beautiful, I'm going to get confident with my driving. Because my granddad was just like, you need to get better at driving so you can come and see us more. But I was such a nervous driver. And now, just saying I'm an amazing driver.

Maybe that’s your mug, the world's best driver.

I don't know if Blair would agree, though.

I think he would think he's the best driver. And so then I was saying all this, and I said, I'm going to get my grandma a kitten. And I was just saying all this stuff about how much I'm going to look after my grandma. And I don't remember having a plan of saying that. And then suddenly I saw a tear fall from my granddad's eye. And I was like, Thatha, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make you cry. And I just like held his hand. And then suddenly the nurses came in and said, Oh, we're just gonna, you know, wash him up and stuff. And you can come back in. So I said, Thatha, don't worry, I'll be back in a few minutes. The nurses are here, I'll be, you know, I'm just leaving for a moment.(...) And then I left nurses went in and they came straight back out. And I was like, Oh, weird. So I didn't think anything of it. I just thought maybe they just they forgot something. So they're going to come back. And then suddenly they were scurrying around and doctors were coming in and out the room. And I was like, Oh, this this, this doesn't seem right. What's going on? There's a lot of like hustle and bustle. And I remember texting Blair, I was like, Can you get them home quickly? And my grandma when she showers, she takes about four days like she just takes forever to get ready. But no, she wasn't four days. She was only like two hours. But I was like, can you get them back to the house? Can you get them back to the house? Not to the house, sorry, get them back to the hospital. And when he came when they came back, I was like, they're not letting me back in the room. And the doctor came over and was like, Yeah, your dad, your granddad has died. He's passed away. And I remember telling my grandma about the story. And she was like, you're so lucky that you got that moment that he kind of she said something about like, it's a blessing to have that moment where someone has a tear fall from their eye. And it's usually moments after that, that someone has decided that it's time to go. And I just felt very privileged to have that moment with my granddad. But the reason I was sharing that story is because in the lead up to that, you know, I was hearing from friends and, and people that I love all the time. And then when he died,it was like half of those people had disappeared off the face of the planet.They completely disappeared. And I was like, Where is everybody? Yeah. And I don't know if you experienced this when you've lost loved ones or gone through grief that there are some people that lean in and give you that support and compassion. And then there's others that just, I think it might be a mixture of not knowing what to say, wanting, they don't want to make things worse. And they just don't say anything at all. And you're like, Hey, like, I need you, but you also don't want to bother them. You don't want to be that person. 

Yeah. Sara, there's so much there. And I'm so happy that you have that moment, that final moment, you know, with your grandpa, because I can imagine how special that still means for you to this moment to have that moment, and to be able to share what you share. And I think that you'll always have that bond that in that moment, in that way, which will always be dear to you. And I had a very similar situation with my grandmother, who was someone I talked to three times a day. And I think grandparents are very special. Like, you know, our parents are great. I think that grandparents are even greater, at least from my experience, I've had some amazing grandparents. But to your point, and I'm going to come back to that, and to your point around, folks tend to fade away, you know, days, weeks, months after it's all said and done. And I go back to when I lost my sister, Sara, there were some of my friends, I won't say proximity to me, because I'm not trying to call nobody out. But there were people who I was like, who raised you? Where it was no acknowledgement. It was nothing. And we had known each other for a long time, like, you know me, I know you. And I'm vulnerable. And if you if you really knew me, you would know that I have no expectations from anyone. My love doesn't have conditions. I don't have requirements to be my friend, just show up as who you are.(...) But it was in that moment, Sara, where I really wanted those who were close to me to pour into me, because my cup was empty. And there were some friends who did not show up for me in that way. And I did have a moment where I'm like, well, who raised you? But some people might not have the tools in their toolkit to even be that. And so, what I've learned from that experience, Sara, is that it's not really a condemnation on them, but it just shows me the ways in which they can support me and the moments in which they can support me. And that's not one of those moments in which they can support me. So who are those people who I can lean on at that time? And so, I learned that. It was hard to kind of come to that moment. But I realized that we all have our different areas where we're just natural and we're really good at. And then there are other moments where folks are just like, I don't want to make this awkward. I don't even know what to do. Or this might be triggering for me. So that latter point that you mentioned around folks fizzling away certainly resonated with me. And I'll say this lastly, after my loss last year, I ended up, because I lived in a town by myself and for work, and ended up flying back home. I lived two hours away from on a flight, two hour flight, 10 hour car drive back home. I ended up going back home. I remember I called my cousin, who's like a sister of mine, I called my cousin and called text, texted her the night before I was coming to her house. I said, I'm coming to your house. I bought a one way ticket. I don't know how long I need to stay. But I just, I need to get myself together. No questions asked Sara. She said, you don't need my permission to come to my house. You know the code to get into my house. We'll see you tomorrow. And it meant so much to me. And I got there and I stayed with her for about a month. Her and her family for about a month. And I remember her husband coming to me.(...) And you know, he said DeMario, he said, however long you need to stay with us, you can do that. And he said that if you need to move in with us, we have plenty of room. 

And it just, it, I, it just, I hold on to that because I'm normally that person who gets people through those moments. And I've, and I've always wanted to be that person. And I wear that proudly. But in that moment, I opened my heart to let someone be that for me. And it felt good to be on the receiving end of love. And so yeah, that was a moment that I always hoped, dear, and I'm so grateful that my cousin could, you know, be there because we, she's also lost a sibling, you know.

And so, so when you talk about people who have gone through it,I think we, we know what that feels like. And not to discredit folks who haven't experienced loss in this way. But I will say that there is a, there's like a bond there. You and I, we can talk about this on a deeper level than someone who might not have gone through it, you know. And so it's, it's, it's, it's, while we regret to have to bond in that way, but I think that we find community and we find peace during those moments to know that I'm really not in this alone. So. 

Yeah, it's so important when those moments happen to not feel alone because it can feel so lonely in your grief when you're in the midst of it and really feeling so raw from the loss. And just as you were talking, it really made me think about the concept of, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, because, you know, when we talk about, you know, being Black or being a person of colour, and we're talking about white allies, white people, you know, they don't have the first-hand experience of being Black or being a person of colour. They can't quite empathize or understand it. They can, they can get it and learn about it, but in terms of actually feeling and knowing what that's actually like in our society, it's pretty, pretty impossible to do. And I think there's some element of that within grief as well in terms of, you know, sometimes, unless you've been through some form of loss, it doesn't have to be, you know, losing a loved one to death, it could be a different type of loss. Sometimes you can't quite comprehend what grief must feel like for somebody because you've not been through it. And that's not to say that if you haven't been through it, you can't be there for somebody, if anything, you can be that person, because actually, if anything, you've got more capacity and energy to hold someone in that space, because you can, you can, you can do that, you've got the resources to do that. And, you know, there's everything in our, in our power to research and learn and understand, okay, I know that someone I love dearly is going through something extremely difficult and tragic. So let me read up on, you know, things, even if you have to ask chat GPT, how to send a text to somebody that had lost somebody, you know, you can. There’s ways now.

To say something, then nothing at all, in my perspective.

Yeah, I agree. There are ways, to your point, there are ways now more, more, more resources to be able to send a text. Even if that text is, I'm thinking of you, or I'm sorry for your loss. I mean, those words go a long way. Because I always think about like, you know, I hope this isn't the case, but what if that's the only text that person is getting?  You know, I would hope that would not be the case. But, you know, Sara, I have friends where it's only been them and maybe someone else where they don't have much family, or they don't have friends, you know. And I think about the privilege of having community during moments of loss. And to your point, whatever that loss looks like, to be able to have some, to have people to reach out to you, and you can reach out too. So also, I think about that. And maybe I'm such a deep person at times. So of course, I would think like that. We're like, what if I'm the only person who would text them? And so I don't want them to feel like no one has reached out to them. And so it's important to be able to, I always say, take a moment if we can, and try to put ourselves in someone else's shoes.

100%. Yeah. With all our might, to just try and understand what someone's going through is all we can ask of ourselves and think what would I potentially need in this situation. I remember my best friend after my granddad died, she drove all the way to come over and made me the best vegetable chili I've ever had in my life. It was so tasty. But sometimes, you know, it's not just saying, oh, you know, let me know how I can help. It's almost proactively making a dish and just, you know, handing it over. No questions asked, no, you know, pressure on it just here. And it doesn't matter if, you know, someone doesn't eat it or throws it away. It's the thought. And actually, you know, even better if it's a really delicious vegetable chili.

That's, and that's it, Sara. Sometimes it's those acts of kindness and those acts of love, where someone proactively just says, let me take this one less thing off of your plate, you know, during this moment. And I'll say this two seconds and I'm gonna come off of it. I also lost a brother over 20 years ago. And I, what my fondest memory, you know, just during that time, and I was, you know, a teenager, which is my first time really, my first time really understanding grief, you know, of a close loved one. But I remember my family will all gather at my mom's house the weeks, you know, leading up to the funeral and days after. And it felt good to be able to be there for each other. Bring a dish, you know, do laundry, you know, do some cleaning, run some errands and those small acts, you know, which sometimes can be laborious for us. But in that moment, just to be of service to someone and to be able to take one less thing. And so I'm sure that meant the world to you to have that vegetable chili, you know, because I can imagine you felt seen in that moment, like you matter. And we all want it for like we matter. 

100%. Yeah, it means the world. And even in that moment, that person may not notice in terms of those small actions. But like it's it's the the load, the mental load on somebody who's navigating that grief and those emotions, they just don't have maybe the capacity to, you know, post that letter or get that thing done that they've been meaning to because sometimes it's all unplanned and you don't expect it. And those small actions, if you have the capacity to do it, can make a world of difference to an individual. 

Sure.

I do want to talk a little bit in the episode, from a workplace perspective around the moment when Michael decides to, he always does this, put together a little seminar to try and get people to be vulnerable and open up about their grief and when they've lost loved ones.

And apparently, I remember listening to Office Ladies podcast, which is two characters from the show that have started a podcast, unpacking things that happened behind the scenes. And they said that this particular section, Michael Scott, that was all not actually scripted. So when he says, you know, I'm being punched in the grief bone, that was all off the cuff. He didn't actually that wasn't actually in the script, which is wild because that bit is just like iconic in terms of what is this man talking about?

And then in the seminar, obviously, all the all the people in the room feel really uncomfortable. It's just such a weird setup. So people start to talk about the Lion King, as like their grief story without actually alluding to the fact that they're talking about a movie. And, you know, and I think we talked about that vulnerability in the workplace. But I think there's an element of it's it's great to create those spaces for people to open up and feel comfortable to share. When it's so manufactured like that, it really puts people off. But I don't feel like you get a genuine connection with people that way and really hear from them and get them vulnerable like that. And sometimes you don't need people to get vulnerable in the workplace, like let them do what they need to do, and then, you know, support them as and when they kind of lean into certain aspects of their grief. But yeah, I'm not sure I don't know about you that seminar was kind of the right, or most appropriate thing to do.

I had a reaction to it very similar to you, Sara, because in my mind, you know,(...) I'm thinking of this in two ways. You know, I really think that, you know, Michael is trying to create a space where the team can come together and collectively grieve together. But to your point earlier in the conversation, I look at this like a container. What's the, oh, what's like, how do you, how are you able to like take that lid off? And then how are you able to put that lid back on? And I think that what we didn't see, at least in that episode, that that wasn't the culture, you know, in the office of that. And Michael was trying to do the best that he can to support the team during that time. And what came out of that,(...) which are some behaviors that we tend to see during loss, were comedy and humor, which is why we saw references, you know, to Bernie’s and to the Lion King, particularly, you know, Mufasa, who we know is a character from the Lion King who passes away. There, and again, there was just, there was no care or intention to your point around, is this really what the team need and or want? You know, maybe it's just that one off conversation, like, Sara, you know, if I if you need anything, my door is open to you. So it created this awkward moment. But I think largely, Sara for me, you know, working the employee experience space, it's just going back to like, how do we just have like, better policies and procedures and cultures around grief in the workplace? And how do we, how do we cultivate a culture where that layer of vulnerability isn't awkward, at least in this Western world, let me say, in this Western world, how do we create a space where it's less awkward, where folks do feel that it's a conversation that can be had? And I'll say this last thing, I had a coworker come to me, she said DeMario, she said, I think about starting an ERG focused on grief or loss. And in my mind, I was just like, Oh, who am I going to talk about, you know, grief or loss and support each other. But then again, what you touch on is the intersectionality of this conversation, we live in opposite ends of the world. And so where she lives, grief, the conversation is talked about. And here I am coming from where I live, like, Sara, I don't know that we're talking about that every day. But be that as it may, in the workplace, how we create spaces for folks to be able to have those resources that we that they need, you know, where organizations now a number of them have employee assistance programs, also known as EAPs, where employees who are experiencing loss can get assistance from the organizations to navigate during those times. Great. That's on the policy and on the culture. And what are we doing to make sure that people feel safe, you know, going to a people leader and then returning back to work, you know, after experiencing loss as well. 

Yeah, it's, um, sorry, I just I was so in tune with everything you were saying. I just I think it's fascinating in terms of setting up an ERG. I'm like, wow, yeah, I didn't even think about that as a group because people might want that and people are more receptive to talking about it. But again, it's that intersectionality, but also that flexibility, because some people might want to lean into that and talk about that and connect with people. And some people might want to maybe, you know, almost be more introverted in their their grief and deal with that on their own. And each and every journey within grief is valid and is about the individual and what they they need. But you've got me thinking about the fact that actually, a lot of the times when we're supporting, you know, our colleagues and employees through grief, it's in the moment. So that person has passed away or that loss has happened. And it's like the first few days and maybe the first couple of weeks. But from my memory, I am dealing with that grief constantly. It doesn't go away. You know, it's been four years this year that my granddad died. And there are moments where it comes up for me randomly. And I think those programs and policies are at the moment from what I've seen okay in the moment. But I don't feel like they actually look into the context of how people truly experience grief, which is, as you say, it's not linear. It's very individualized. And it's not just in that moment, it goes on for the rest of your life.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. And what comes up for me, Sara, is there are some people where the grief doesn't hit them until after. Some people have like this experience of delayed effect, where when you're experienced loss, there are some people where you get caught up, if it is a death, you get caught up in the planning and the facilitation of all that comes along with that, which is funeral services, gravesite, estate, all of that. And then once all of that is over to, you know, it's just like months later, weeks later, even a year later, years later, it'll hit you like, wow. And to your point, what support is offered then? You know, how can a person still have that moment to deal with that, have grace, and have the resources that they need, because it comes in waves. And it hit you. You know, I share with you, you know, over the weekend, you know, mark the one-year anniversary first year of my sister's passing. And there are moments where I'm over it, and life goes on. And then there are moments where even at work, there'll be small things or just things that will remind me of her. And it'll hit me, and I have to find myself having to pull myself together. I remember there was a time where I was headed into a meeting two minutes before, and something reminded me of her like a scent. And it broke me down, Sara. It really did. It broke me down. And in two minutes, I had to pull myself together to be able to go into this meeting to show up. And it was the last thing that was on my mind. You know, so all that to say, you know, it's not a linear process. And it comes in waves, and it hits us. And, you know, I'll say this before I forget. You know, one of the things in that grief counseling session from the episode, what kept coming up for me is, you know, who is supporting Michael, the manager during this time? You know, what's coming up for him? You know, how is his well-being, you know, during this time, you know, right now? And there were a couple of things that were coming up for me in terms of, you know, again, how are we supporting managers during moments like that? Because even the role of a manager, I feel like has expanded, you know, since COVID, where managers now have a lot that they are on their plate when you think about culture. And I know that's a different topic we can jam out about, but that had come up for me in that episode as well. It was how was Michael doing, you know, during this moment? 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was a really lovely moment towards the end where one of the characters, Pam, recognizes that Michael's actually struggling with this. And I think it's a really beautiful moment because there's this bird that has died. And it's almost like sometimes this happens with grief a lot. You know, it's not actually that moment where you've lost someone. It's a completely unrelated thing that's happened that almost triggers it because, you know, having those emotions with that particular individual doesn't come up, but a random dead bird might unlock something in you, which makes you actually realize what's kind of happening here. Yeah, Pam comes in and she kind of puts together this like tissue box and, you know, creates this like little funeral for the bird. And then Dwight comes out with his recorder. Apparently he does know how to play the recorder in real life. He didn't actually just rehearse for that moment. But I think that was just like a really beautiful sentiment. Like I know it seems so silly and it seems so like ridiculous that they were throwing a funeral for a bird. But sometimes we need those things and we need that element of it's kind of about what's happening, but also not, to kind of take the edge off a little bit so you can actually feel into your feelings without it being too raw and too focused on what's actually happening in that moment.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, it was a special moment. Yeah, definitely a special moment.

I love that. And I think that's the kind of a note, a note for employees and colleagues and peers who are with those that they work with who might be going through things is just having that flexibility, having that compassion, not disappearing and just saying something as opposed to nothing because that will mean the world, you know, and it could be a case of, hey, do you want to, you know, go grab a cup of coffee or tea? Or is it that you want to give me that email to do? I can take this client off your back for the moment. I could go and send all that mail for you if you need to. All those things, those acts of service can mean the world.

Yes. And I'll say this lastly and hand it back to you, Sara. And for the folks who are going through loss, open your heart and allow folks to pour into you in that way. Because one of the mistakes I made, Sara, was pouring myself into work and not really leaning into people who wanted to take that one email off of my list, who could lead the project until I got back, you know, who could sub for me in that meeting. And I felt like I needed to still show up for work. But for those, if you have the support, allow people to support you during that time. I cannot emphasize it enough because I started to, it wasn't healthy for me, you know, towards the end when I didn't allow myself that time to step away. So I would say, if you have the love and support of people who can pour into you at work, who want to be there, take it.

Beautifully, beautifully put. And a wonderful way to kind of wrap up our podcast episode. This has been absolutely amazing. I am so grateful for you, DeMario, and you taking the time out to talk to me about this. It's been really lovely. I've really enjoyed it. And I'm so sure our listeners will be relating to everything that we've talked about and just grateful that we've discussed something that often is kind of brushed under the carpet and not talked about enough, especially in the workplace context. So hopefully we’ve shed a bit of light on that and given people some ideas and support in terms of how they can, one, accept help if they're going through this, but also to how to give that support if they're not sure how to do that. So yeah, thank you so much again. And thank you to all our listeners.

If you have the capacity to, we'd love you to send some comments over, give us a review, rate the podcast, let us know what you think. We always welcome your feedback. And we'll see you in the next podcast episode. Thanks, everyone.