S2 EP03 - Benihana Christmas

Sara: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Out of the Office and I am delighted to be joined by Cass. Cass, come and say hello to our listeners and tell us a little bit about you.

Cass: Hi everyone, I'm Cass and I'm a freelance event planner focusing on inclusive diverse events and also I do a lot of workplace wellbeing and culture stuff as well.

Sara: Basically you make people feel better when they're in social situations and events and things like that. 

Cass: Absolutely, that's the goal. 

Sara: I feel like it's so needed because I've been to so many events, I've been to so many situations where I feel either left out or like I don't belong, I just can't wait to like run out of the room and leave. Like sometimes those networking events, I'm just like, oh, like my skin crawls and I'm like cringing hard. I'm like, how do people network for a living? This is hard.

Cass: Yeah, I think networking is like people have been doing it for so long that it's really hearts back to a time when it had like a very set format and probably a very narrow type of person who would go to the networking events, probably a white man, whereas now, you know, the world's opened up a little thankfully and a few different types of people are networking and in a lot of cases, I don't think the planning for that is necessarily caught up. So that's one of the things I want to try and change.

Sara: Absolutely. And I think something that I've seen some organisations take more notice of recently, and as someone that self-diagnoses ADHD, people are noticing that event spaces or kind of the structure of it, the things that they're putting on aren't actually inclusive for neurodivergent people. And I've been to so many where I'm like, if I had different types of conditions, I don't know how I wouldn't be able to actually be in this room and experience the same things that a neurotypical person could have. And I've been to events with my ADHD, and I'm just like, I can hear so many other things going on, but I find it really difficult to focus on what's happening. I went to an event recently, beautiful panel, beautiful event, like such an awesome subject around Lesbian Visibility Week. And they were obviously setting up for the food afterwards for people to eat, which I was like very excited about because I love free food.

But I don't think people realise how loud they were clashing this cutlery together. And I was trying to focus on what the panellists were saying. And there was all this clashing and banging and all this noise going on in the background that I just completely missed like the last sort of 15 minutes of the session, which sometimes is like the best juiciest bit because people know that things are wrapping up and they're like, right, let me give you all the tidbits. Let me give you all the information. And I was just like so disappointed. And luckily for me in that moment, it wasn't like a complete shutdown or meltdown moment, but it was just disappointing to be taken away from such a fruitful conversation.

Cass: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's really important to consider all the types of people who might be attending your event. And even if you're not sure of those types of people who are attending your event, you should be catering as though they are. And unless you're going to ask specifically invitees what their requirements are, you should just assume that you're trying to make a space that's inclusive for everyone who could possibly be attending.

Sara: Absolutely. And the person that doesn't do that is Angela in the office. She is the opposite of creating this inclusive space. So we're going to watch a short clip from the office. So this is episode Benihana Christmas, and it's from season three, episode 10. And it's quite an eye opening experience of what people may or may not have experienced in the workplace when it comes to organizing events and putting together socials for their teams and for their employees. So let's see what happens. 

There is the short clip of Angela's.

Cass: My favourite character, I know she's the worst, but she's my favourite.

Sara: Her real character, the person that she is behind the character is completely different from Angela, like she's an easy person. 

Cass: Yeah.

Sara: So, yeah, I guess I want to hear your initial reflections of, I guess, the whole episode, but this particular clip of seeing this lack of collaboration play out when they're planning the Christmas social.

Cass: Yeah, I mean, that meeting seems a really good one to show because I've been in that meeting. I'm not Angela, but I've been in the meeting where certainly when I was much more junior in my career and you're like, hey, why don't we try this and that? And you've got someone being like, no, that won't work. No, we don't do it like that. We've never done it like that.

And oftentimes, I think a lot of companies, they'll have party planning committees or social committees or culture committees, whatever they call them. And it tends to be the same people who put themselves forward for these groups. And then you just end up with kind of like an echo chamber of ideas of what people in that group think is good.

Or maybe it's a group that's been put together by the leadership team, or maybe it's being fed into by the leadership team who are saying like, we want to organise this event and we want to do it this way. And it's just a lot of like top down ideas. And I think what's really important for companies to do is to gather feedback from everyone who might be attending these events and try and make sure that they're sort of integrating that into their planning, which is obviously not what Angela does. Angela rules with an iron fist and she knows, she thinks she knows what everyone wants. She just plans the events that she wants to have and the events that she wants to attend. And it's a common theme throughout all of the party planning committee episodes of the office where she is in charge and her, you know, it's her way or the highway. And yeah, I've definitely experienced that many times.

Sara: I feel like Angela knows what everyone wants, but she knows what's best. So she doesn't even go with what people actually want. She's just like, no, I have the best ideas and this is how things should be done. And it's like, there's many ways to do a Christmas social or any kind of event or social activity at work. What I find really interesting about what you said was around leadership and how leadership are acting in those particular situations. And something I see and experienced in the past is, especially if you're a junior member of the team, right? You know, Angela's in finance, Pam's, you know, the receptionist. So there may be like this subconscious idea of like a hierarchy within that team in terms of Angela's the boss and also she's the head of the party planning committee. So everyone's like, oh, we'll obviously be led by her. But I think there's that like authority bias that comes to play where people naturally want to lean towards or are more influenced by the most authority person in the room's opinion and their kind of belief. And that's not to say it's a bad thing. Obviously, someone that's in a leadership role is likely there, hopefully, because, you know, they have the qualifications and the skill sets to do that leadership role. Michael Scott aside, because he definitely is someone that is not equipped to be managing an office.

But, you know, I think sometimes what leaders end up doing is they will come into a room, share their ideas and go, okay, I want to hear what you think of it. But everyone in there, because of that hierarchy and that, you know, power of authority and the different power structure there, people are like, oh, I don't want to go against the leader. I don't want to say anything different. I want to affirm them. I want to kind of be on their side. And so they naturally will kind of go, oh, this idea that you had was great. Even if they have their own opinion that might be different to the leader. Now, there are some great people out there that will come out and say something very different and oppose and challenge the leader, which is really great to have. But it doesn't happen as often as I think it should. Because as you say, then it becomes that group thing and everyone thinks and comes up with the same ideas, which I think is basically what happens in this. Because, you know, this person has come in from a new organisation with fresh ideas and has done different things in the Stanford branch.

I said branch. I was like, who did I become? Watching too much of the office. And, yeah, no, she comes out with all these brilliant ideas, but Angela shoots them down. And I guess in your experience, what happens after a while when that kind of continues to happen in those kind of party planning committee sessions or even just being part of those kind of cultures?

Cass: I think people just get bored of the event because they know they're just going to be saying however frequently they are, week on week or every Christmas party or whatever.

And they just think I know exactly how it's going to go. It's going to be by numbers because it's going to be exactly the same as it always is because it's going to be as per what the party planning committee or this person has decided. People get jaded. People don't come to the event. And like the whole point of having social events at work is to get staff interacting with one another. And if people aren't coming to the events because they think they're going to be boring or not interesting to them or they know it's going to be a big booze fest and they don't drink or whatever the reason is that people aren't going to attend, then you're just, what's the point? What's the point of having them? If you're alienating people at work to not want to come.

So I think that's the real danger.

Sara: Do you see any organisations doing it well in terms of not alienating people and actually creating really inclusive events? Like what do they look like and feel like?

Cass: I mean, the best organisations, the organisations who do it the best are the ones who gather feedback from their staff. So either post previous events, ask for feedback.

Try and intentionally, if you've got a committee or anything, try and intentionally get a diverse range of voices in that committee. So don't just say like, oh, who wants to volunteer to be in it because introverted people, for example, probably wouldn't volunteer.

And then again, you just have the same loud voices over and over planning everything. And then those loud extroverted voices, similar to what you were saying about how someone in a leadership role is unlikely to be challenged. You know, the loud extroverted voices are unlikely to be challenged by the quieter introverted voices. And you just have the same events being created by the same people. And those loud extroverted people probably all want to have the same type of events where it's boozy and it's karaoke and it's loud and it's music, which is great and fun and certainly an event that I would want to go to, but it's not for everyone. So try to... So organisations that don't force people to be in these committees, but try and encourage people from all different levels of the organisation, from different departments in the organisation, from different backgrounds in the organisation to be parts of these committees.

And make sure that whoever's chairing that committee is leaving space open for everyone to contribute. That isn't coming in like Angela and just steamrolling and saying like, this is what we're going to do and you're all all my minions and you can just implement my ideas. Like it needs to be, you know, an open dialogue for everyone.

And I think the companies that do that best are the ones that have an open dialogue, transparent culture everywhere, not just within their social party planning committees. Companies that do this in their culture everywhere, it shows up everywhere in the business, including planning parties and making sure that they're inclusive and diverse and that all the voices are heard. So the companies that do this the best are the companies that listen to everyone everywhere, everywhere across the company.

And then in turn they're going to create events that people want to attend.

Sara: Yeah, I think it's so important to get the perspective of everybody, because a lot of the times when you, I guess if you set up a meeting and you're like, all right, give me your perspective, as you say, the extroverted people will shout out and say the things. Some people might need time to go away, reflect and go, these are my ideas, this is my feedback. And sometimes people don't want the feedback associated with them as an individual, because something could be quite specific in terms of maybe they had a situation that triggered them at that event. Or maybe there's a situation where they don't want people to know why they're not drinking alcohol or why they don't want to be in certain circles or certain events or spaces or whatever it may be. So having that anonymous feedback, I think, I don't know if you agree, but I think is really important. And actually, you can get some really concrete representative views of your employees by having that anonymous feedback and giving an opportunity to give feedback in different ways, because everyone isn't the same, right? Everyone gives it different.

Cass: Yeah, exactly. And some people would be more than happy just saying it to your face or putting it out on Slack in front of everyone. And that's fine. But yeah, like you say, you need to give people who aren't comfortable with that the opportunity to go away and think about what they want to say, and also give that feedback in a way that's anonymous and not in front of everyone else. And yeah, so it's really important to make sure that however you're asking for feedback, you're asking for it in a variety of different ways that accommodate everyone.

Sara: It makes me think about employee resource groups. And I think they can be such a great tool within an organisation to get that feedback from specific identity groups. But I also think even within those employee resource groups, you can have the similar dynamic of what Angela has here with the Learning Committee, because sometimes, you know, an ERG leads are incredible, and I love working with them. And it's such hard work, because they're doing that voluntarily most of the time for a lot of these organisations, in addition to their probably very tiring and all consuming day to day role. And so sometimes because you are maybe time poor, and you're kind of swept off your feet, you're just kind of going for things that are quite not easy, but maybe not thinking creatively about how can I accommodate for everybody within my, you know, group and what would they would enjoy. And like you say, maybe falling on the, oh, let's do a happy hour, which always seems to be like a really lovely idea of bringing people together. But not everybody drinks alcohol, not everybody wants to be in a situation where they are drinking alcohol.

And maybe that happy hour is after work, and not everyone can do things after work. And sometimes it needs to be within the working hours.

And so I think even those kind of socials and those kind of structures being mindful of your position, and actually, are you getting the adequate feedback from everyone within that group to give events that are bespoke, and what's needed from the people that are there that you're representing?

Cass: Yeah, definitely. And I think we're seeing it more now where, you know, companies hire roles specifically to do this, employee engagement roles, employee engagement leads. And I think, again, they're the companies that are taking this seriously, and not just expecting somebody to volunteer on top of their day job and find the time.

And I think that's really important. And it's really showing a shift in a lot of companies that they are taking this seriously. And this is something that they're not just paying lip service to, you know, they're really trying to make meaningful change and make sure that they're putting on events and creating employee experiences that, you know, are important to everyone. And with, you know, Gen Z coming into the work, I mean, Gen Z are well in the workplace now, but we know that they have very specific ideas about working places where the culture and the value are like linked to their own personal values. And also, they're expecting almost like a personalised employee experience, much more so than previous generations. So I think it's really important to have people who are specifically employed in order to, you know, deliver those. And they've got the time and the resource and the buy in from leadership in order to do that. I think that's really important.

Sara: Interesting what you're saying about the generations, because I think there is growing generational divides in terms of what people expect and have and do within the workplace context. You know, some people want flexible working. Some people want four days. Some people want different things. People want companies to have very strong views and very strong values in terms of what's going on in the world. Some people are like, no, companies do not need to talk about those kind of political things. And so there's so many varying opinions about what an organisation's responsibility is. I feel like with events and with socials, I don't know if it's possible to please everybody. I feel like it's really difficult to make sure that everyone is happy. So, you know, I think people can work really hard to get people to feel included and do everything they can to create that sense of belonging within the socials, within the events they create. But ultimately, people are very different and will need very different things. And one event can't answer all of those things.

And I don't know if you have any advice for people that may be experiencing that challenge of, you know, how do I please everybody? Because one person wants to do a happy hour karaoke and shots at the bar. And then somebody else wants to do, I don't know, an afternoon tea with no champagne. That's very like in the middle of the day and very pleasant and very chill. But how do you even get an event where it answers both of those things? Because there's such distinct kind of purposes.

Cass: Yeah. Well, I mean, like you said, you can't please everyone. And you just have to accept that going in, I think. But I mean, as per Benihana Christmas, in the end, we have these two very different parties that find a way to sort of integrate together.

And, you know, had they planned together in the beginning, then they perhaps could have put on an event that was an amalgamation of the two ideas from the start.

So I think where it's possible to do that, to try and cater for, you know, different experiences. I think if you're, for example, say you're doing a Christmas party in an office and you've got a DJ and karaoke and a cocktail bar and it's loud and it's party, you know, are you providing spaces in the office where people can go and sit and talk quietly or is it just, you know, party central?

Even though, even if it's like, you know, the objective is we want to do a Christmas party in the office, think about ways that you can try and introduce areas where people could go and sit quietly or activities that aren't necessarily doing karaoke.

Maybe you set up some games or something like that, which is just like a little more low key.

So sometimes there are ways to sort of cater for not necessarily everyone, but multiple people within the same event. Also, if you are part of a party planning committee at a company, it's likely that you're looking after multiple events throughout the year. So it's just making sure that you've got a variety and it's not always the same. It's not the same happy hour and pizza every week. You know, maybe sometimes it's something that's not drinking or sometimes it's something creative or, and, you know, making sure that you're doing remote events and including people who aren't in the office at all.

Just making sure that you've got like quite a varied program of events throughout the year. I think it's really important as well.

Sara: Absolutely. Because I think for me, I love the idea of being at karaoke and there being a DJ and there being like a buzz. That's, that very much speaks to me. But also sometimes it starts to get a bit overwhelming because I'm, the noise is there and I'm trying to have a really good conversation with a colleague or a friend. And I can't quite do both of those things. And I've really loved when I've been to events and they have like a very quiet space. They have like a designated room or a section where it's like a little bit quieter where you can have those conversations or even sit to yourself and just take your time. But sometimes we need a time out because it just gets all a bit too much. And that's perfectly acceptable. But it's not that you want to completely remove yourself. You just want to take some time away, recharge, decompress and come back in and feel a bit better about yourself and kind of join in again. So yeah, absolutely having that diverse group of, sorry, having that diverse array of things and options for people to be able to go, okay, this is a little bit of me. That is definitely not me. So you'll find me over here kind of vibe.

Cass: Yeah, I think as well, if you've got say your party planning committee and they're at the event, making sure that everyone knows who they are and saying, you know, if you are feeling overwhelmed, or if, you know, the food, you've got an allergy and it's not been catered for at the food and you need to talk to like, these are who are on the party planning committee, go and find one of those people. And they'll be able to help you find a safe space or find the food that's appropriate for you, or answer any other questions that you might have.

I think that's really important as well, making sure that your committee is there and visible, and people know that they can go to them for help.

Sara: I think also is really valuable to set up expectations because I recently went to an event where there was no clear outline of what to expect at the event. You know, it was kind of very broad in terms of what it was, its purpose was for. And because there was no clear expectations, I didn't really quite know what to do and what I should be doing. And it might seem like really common sense to most people where it's like you just walk in a room and you figure it out as you go along. But I think because of my neurodivergent brain, it really helps me to feel more included when there's a little bit of an overview of, okay, here's what to expect. This is what we would like you to kind of have as an outcome of this social or this event. You know, we want you to come out with great connections or great knowledge, whatever it may be, it's really useful. So I know, okay, here's my purpose, here's my objective. I can go do it. And I feel really confident and comfortable with what I can do. If I'm kind of figuring out as I go along, it's like, one, I'm trying to figure out what I should do. But I'm also trying to figure out the space, trying to figure out who's in the room and trying to figure out what's the conversation, what's the food situation, what's the drink situation. And it all just feels really overwhelming in the moment, because I'm just, it's all together at all the same time. And so having those diverse perspectives and opinions and people being able to contribute without shame, because sometimes, especially when you're neurodivergent, some of the things you ask, I feel for myself anyway, there's a bit of shame with it, because we operate in such a neurotypical environment, that I'm like, oh, am I just being too difficult? Am I being too sensitive? Am I asking for too much?

But yeah, being able to have a space where I could go to probably not Angela, but someone where I could be like, hey, this is what I feel about the party planning. And this is what could be really beneficial for some people. Let's run with it and see what happens. And hopefully they get positive feedback from making those adjustments.

Cass: Yeah, definitely. And to your point about, you know, knowing what to expect, I firmly believe that you cannot over communicate what is expected at an event. And anyone who's worked with me will know that I will send 10 billion Slack messages being like, this is when the food is, this is when the bar is, this is when this happens, this is happening. And I think it's really important as well, like you said, you know, what's the objective of the event. And that's something that's often set internally in the party planning process, because it might be right, what's our objective for this event. So we know, so that will shape the planning, like what kind of venue and what kind of event. But I think, yeah, share that objective with everyone who's coming. So people know, you know, is it just, you know, a big laugh and a drink up? Or is it, you know, something more meaningful than that? I think that's really important as well. So just, yeah, be really clear over communicate. Definitely, definitely communicate an agenda.

And yeah, let people know where they can go with feedback questions before the event, during the event, and afterwards as well.

Sara: I love that. And obviously, let's talk about the little subgroups that are formed as a result of not being able to communicate to Angela what people want. Have you seen this happen in the workplace where people will start to have splinter groups and try to do their own little things and their mini, mini socials?

Cass: Yeah, I mean, I think probably in a slightly less formal way than it's done in this episode. But certainly people will obviously people form their own friendship groups at work and those people will socialise. But yeah, then definitely those people I've seen it before where people are splinter often organise their own events. And it might start off where they sort of invite everyone and say like, hey, we're all going to go to whatever shuffle club after work and if anyone wants to join, but over time, it just gets like limited, limited, limited and only the same people go and then you just end up with a separate echo chamber of like those people. But again, it goes back to your point in that you can't please everyone. So, you know, in that way, people will organise their own things. And I think what I've seen that's really nice is sort of this organic people who find other people with the same interests as them at work. So like whether it's reading or line dancing or whatever it is, and they might, it might start off with like a slack channel for people who, you know, like line dancing, and then it's like, hey, a few of us are going to try and go line dancing, perhaps we could all go together. And then that sort of grows arms and legs. And that's like a really nice organic way for things to grow. Culturally, I think people find their people. And I think that's really nice.

But, you know, then I think there's no reason why using the line, I don't know why I've gone with the line dancing example, but I'm into it now. Why that person can't, you know, suggest that the company puts on a line dancing social because we know there's 20 people who definitely, definitely are into it. And I think a lot of times companies are quite short sighted and will be like, well, that's too specific. People don't want to do that. And it's like, drinking might be quite specific for a lot of people, you know, a lot of people who don't want to drink. Drinking is so often seen as like the default social, and has been for so long. And going back to your point about networking in the beginning, and when I was saying, you know, there's quite an old fashioned view of networking, that was networking, like 20 years ago, just drinking, like that was networking.

And I think that's still really the default for a lot of people. And I've worked at companies where we put on a lot of happy hours.

And it's the same 20 people who come every week, the same way as it would be probably if you put on a line dancing social. So it's not any lot, it's not any more broad or inclusive. It's just that people like drinking.

And often people like, you know, the extrovert types who often tend to be the leaders, they like drinking. So they want to go to events, they want to plan and go to events that they want to go to. But I think, yeah, I think drinking is not necessarily any more universal than like something quite specific, really. Because there's a lot of reasons why people don't drink or can't drink or don't want to drink or all of that. And it should always be the default.

And also from a hate crime perspective, you know, increasingly, just getting people drunk on company money is a bad idea.

Sara: Recipe for disaster.

Yeah, it's really interesting when you were talking about the subgroups, because it makes me think of clicks in companies and organisations. So, you know, when you create a social where it's only catering for some, and then you get those subgroups, and then they do their own little mini socials, like you say, they invite people, and then the group gets smaller and smaller. And then it's not just in the socials, right? Because then it becomes infiltrated every part of the organisation. So you notice those subgroups and those smaller kind of splinter groups, they'll go to lunch together, or they'll hang around in the meeting after the meeting's finished and be in the room together. And it creates this culture of like, what are they talking about? Are they talking about things? So they talking about that? What's what's kind of the vibe, and it just creates that division. And when it comes to those big socials, it's really hard to integrate all those groups together, because then everyone's like, Oh, are you going to this thing? 

Yes. And then they'll just spend the whole time together, rather than actually getting to know each other. And I think that's what's so wonderful and great about creating really unique creative events, because you can push people out of their comfort zone in a really in a nice way, not in a, Oh, my goodness, let's make people panic kind of way, like setting up for inclusion, but get people to connect with people that maybe they wouldn't necessarily always engage with, you know, sometimes you'll get the finance department hanging out with the finance team, and then you'll get, you know, the HR team hanging out with the HR team. But it'll be really nice to bring those different groups together, all the different splinter, because then actually, you then encourage collaboration and people to think, Oh, I never thought about it from that perspective. Let me think about that for next time. And then hopefully, as a result, you create this culture, both as an organisation, but also for socials, where everything feels really integrated, and hopefully left like what Angela's doing in the office for the party planning committee.

Cass: Yeah, definitely. And I think what you're seeing a lot of now that companies are doing is rather than doing regular socials every week, or every month, whatever, they're taking that budget. And instead of doing regular socials, they're doing like an annual offsite for the entire company.

And then in that offsite, they can, because that will be over a couple of days or three days or whatever, they can offer a range of different activities, networking things, ways to get people together, that is meaningful.

And you can really see the benefit and the outcome. And you see people who don't normally interact interacting with each other, everyone's out of their comfort zone, because you've taken them out of the office, out of their usual, like, place where they all exist in their little clicks normally. And everyone's just like figuring it out together. And in a way, I think that's a lot more meaningful in a lot of cases, rather than just putting money behind a bar once a week for the same 20 people to come up and drink the bar dry, you know.

So yeah, I think there's a there's a real shift in that. And then obviously, off-site, you can do so much learning and upskilling and growth stuff as well as the social aspect. And over two or three days, you know, there's plenty of scope and time to allow people to spend time on their own.

So it's not just like, this is like one really intense social event where you have to interact with people. And you've got three hours in which to do it. It's like you've got a couple of days and there's this, this thing's happening, and that thing's happening. And to your point of like, not knowing what's happening when you've got a really clear agenda of like, there's going to be this networking thing this morning, and then we're going to do whatever activity this afternoon. And then you've got three hours in between that you can just do whatever you want in. And you can have that downtime if you want. So I think yeah, I think offsites are increasingly becoming more valuable.

Sara: Oh, my goodness, just you hear it. Just hearing you talk about creating spaces where people can like be on their own, because I think that's what I really struggle with, because I'll go to these events, or I'll go to these off sites, or I've done things in the past, and there is no time that's carved in to have people decompress and just be on their own for a little while.

Cass: Always, yeah.

Sara: Because it is always, it's quite intense. 

Cass: Yeah

Sara: And actually, it's so valuable for our brains to have a bit of a break, because then we actually come in refreshed and can absorb more information. But sometimes we're so like, all right, time is finite, we've got a jam packed agenda, because we need to make most of the time that we have together, because it's only once a year or whatever it may be. But actually, you're probably doing a disservice to the offsite, because you're not allowing people to just take a moment away and reflect or do what they need to do, which might be, we talked about this earlier, just mindingly scrolling on Instagram, just like having a moment to yourself to do nothing.

So absolutely, I feel like if there's anything that organisations to take away is that you don't have to fill every single minute of the day of an agenda, you can carve out some alone time. And even like when we have like set times for lunch and breaks, it still feels like those are supposed to be social, right? You know, the lunch will have it together, the breaks have the coffee together and network in between those sessions. And so it's about curating that space and encouraging people that you can also use that time to just have some downtime and do your own thing and come back rested and hopefully ready for the next part of the agenda.

Cass: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think that's really important. I would always, always try and carve out time. And if that means, you know, often a lot of leaders now they want to do these, you know, fancy offsites abroad somewhere, but like, then you have to build in a day of travel time either side and that eating it and then you have to condense everything into the remaining day that you've got in between. I would always encourage a leader to do it in the UK. And you can, you know, maximise the time you actually spend together and then build in, make sure you're building in time for downtime, rather than, you know, making everyone fly out to wherever, having to squish everything into a day and a half. Everyone's burnt out and it's intense and then flying everyone home.

Yeah, I'd always encourage leaders to think about that.

Sara: Love that. We are having to wrap up now. I feel like that time is absolutely flown by. I say that every episode, but it really does. I have no concept of time. You can blame the ADHD.

Is there anything you want to mention about the episode or anything around inclusive events that you think our listeners, you know, should take away and could be their biggest learning from, you know, what we can do differently to make sure our events cater for as many people as possible?

Cass: Well, I think something that's really important, I rewatched the episode yesterday in anticipation of this and a bit that really struck me is, so when Michael comes back from, there's this horrible subplot that's going on during the episode that's really racist, but he comes back from the bar and he walks into Angela's party and with the waitresses that he's brought back from the bar and he says, like, he's brought them back for this party and someone says, oh, there's another party going on in the break room and he's like, oh, thank God, because this is terrible. Come on, let's go. And it just made me think of, like, all the times I've done events and you have leaders who are disparaging about it and you just need, you're not going to encourage anyone to go to events if you've got leaders turning up and being like, this is no good. You need that leadership buy in. It's really, really, really important. So whatever format you're taking to plan events at work, whether it's a committee or like you're an EA or a HR person who's been lumped with the job or whatever it is, make sure that you've got leadership buy in. And I don't necessarily, I don't mean, like, run ideas, pass leadership and make sure they're okay with it. But just, I would encourage leaders to just trust their teams and, you know, whatever event gets planned, even if it's not an event that you specifically perhaps would want to attend or would have chosen, like, get involved and be encouraging and don't turn up and be disparaging and leave after 10 minutes because it just, it's just not a good look. And it's just not going to encourage anyone else to want to want to attend either. So that would be, that would be one of my piece of advice.

Sara: Great piece of advice. I feel like leaders can make or break those kind of situations. So they have a great, great bit of power in there to either make people feel included or not. And I think also just really shit to say that to your employees. And they've gone to all that. Organising events is hard work. Like, I don't know how you do it. It's a lot of work. So I think, yeah, we should celebrate people who do these things day in and day out because it's definitely not for everyone. Not anyone can do it. It's not an easy job.

Cass: It's not. 

Sara: So something I'm asking all my guests is if you had a world's best boss or Michael's version of a world's best boss mug, what would, what would your say? What would your world's best something say?

Cass: I would be the world's best hun because I'm a hun. And anybody who's worked with me knows that I love hun culture. So anything UK hun culture related, that's me. My informal job title, a previous job was chief hun officer.

Always had all my events. Like, so this would be my Angela moment. All events would be like soundtrack by the sugar babes. We'd have Whispering Angel and Prosecco on lock.

That would be that if I was Angela, those would be all my events.

Sara: So where do I sign up? That sounds amazing. I actually have a WhatsApp group called Whispering Angels because there's a group of us that love Whispering Angels.

Yeah, absolutely. So this has been really wonderful. And I'm just so grateful for you taking the time out to share your wonderful insights.

Cass: Thanks for having me, this has been great!

Sara: And I'm sure our listeners will want to follow you and find out more about your work. So tell us, tell us everything. Where can we find more out more about you?

Cass: Find me on my website, Cassbriscoe.com or I'm on LinkedIn, Cass Briscoe. I'm on Instagram, Cass Briscoe. I'm Cass Briscoe everywhere.

Yeah, so check me out. Give me a follow. Always love to connect with people.

Sara: Awesome. And yeah, we'll look out for the event invite for sugar babes and Whispering Angel.

Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for tuning into this episode. And thank you to Cas for taking the time out today as well. And we hope you all have a wonderful day and we'll see you in the next one.

Thanks everyone. Bye.