S2 EP01 - Print in all Colors

Sara: Hello, everyone, and welcome back for season two of Out of the Office! We're changing things up a little bit for this season and we are just going to jump straight into the content, no introductions, no nothing like that based on your feedback. So we have the wonderful Tashan to speak with us today. Tashan, say hello to our listeners.

Tashan: Hey, everyone. My name is Tashan, pronouns he/they, and excited to get into it today.

Sara: Me too, I think it doesn't feel like it's been that long since recording season one, but we were just chatting before we hit record, like, I'm actually quite nervous because obviously I'm changing a few things and I'm trying to like figure out the warm up. And I was saying how before the introduction and doing all these things, it helps me warm up, and it feels like so cold turkey to just jump straight back into it and like, oh, you go, hello, hi. 

Tashan: Straight in the deep end Just like, whoa, we're in it now.

Sara: And I was saying to Tashan that you're a bit of a guinea pig for this new season and for the new approaches that we're going to have for the podcast, which I'm really excited for. And I think our listeners are going to really enjoy the new features that we have for this.

Tashan: Yeah, I'm really excited by it, too. And I love change, famous last words. So happy to be the guinea pig and excited to be a part of it as well. It's such a great first season. So now coming in to be a part of it. Yeah, really excites me.

Sara: Yeah. And just throwing it back to season one, the reason that we actually know each other is because of one of the guests that was on season one, which is Asha.

Tashan: Yes! 

Sara: She did Diversity day, which was honestly, I had such great feedback about that episode. People really found it so insightful. So shout out to Asha for introducing us.

Tashan: Yes, honestly, it was a great networking in general. Like, Asha is genuinely one of the loveliest people and will just straight up connect you to people and be like, "Look, I think you two are awesome, meet."

Sara: Yeah, she's good like that. And yeah, we were talking about the World's Best Boss mug feature, which is something I'm going to still keep in the podcast. But we're actually going to leave it to the end because I want to see if people will just hold on to just find out at the end about the world's best. So Tashan, you have the whole episode, this whole recording, so think about what your answer to that question is going to be.

Tashan: Like, what is it? So yeah, let's let me think. Let me think.

Sara: So today's episode, we're talking about quite a good one, which is body language, which is quite a funny episode because there's kind of two themes running alongside it. So this is season six, quite a lot later on, episode 23. And specifically, I wanted to talk about this one because they launch a minority executive training program called Print in All Colors, which I think the premise is pretty smart. I think it's quite a good idea. And the idea is to essentially help racial and ethnic minorities rise up through the ranks in the company, because obviously this company realizes they don't actually have that diversity they would like to see, especially in senior leadership. I think this is something that a lot of organizations struggle with, right? And I don't know from your experience about these programs, like what makes them so important to have?

Tashan: Yeah, I think that's a really great question. I think one, it starts with the recognition that actually there is a disparity. I think there's been a lot of work, and the industry that I work in, one of them, one of the many, the advertising industry, we have the All In survey. And so you can actually see from the data the percentage of, say, people from racial backgrounds in different levels and tiers. And you can see compared to the, I guess, the rest of the population or even the London working population, when you get higher up, actually, there is that disparity.

So one, these programs are really good because it's just being open and honest, saying, actually, this is something that we want to work on. This is something that we want to invest in to work against. Two, I think also for that racialized person in that position, someone actually investing in training is an actual positive action. For me, training is one of the most important things. And I think sometimes people can get left by the wayside. I think that's the surprising thing.

And if you don't necessarily have that dynamic in your organization where you are working with a leader who sees you, hears you, acknowledges you, and wants you to grow and understands where you're coming from, then you're just kind of there like in the dark just trying to work out what's going on.

And so actually having structured and objectively growth-led training at least gives you that sense of, oh, this is the skills that are necessary, because sometimes it might be actually I actually know this stuff already and I'm actually demonstrating this. And so if this is what it takes and I'm already demonstrating this and I can evidence it, why am I not moving upwards? It can even shine a light on some of those things and give you that language and that toolkit to be able to actually reposition things. I actually have done the training now. I can show how I was already demonstrating that. And so this is actually where I should be if this is what parity looks like for someone like me.

Sara: Absolutely. And I think that just what you're saying in terms of having the language, because the skill set is already there. It's not like, I know there's so many programs out there that like we need to empower people, we need to give the voice to people. And I'm like, the voice is already there. The empowerment is already there, but it's just open the doors and allowing that voice to be heard and to be listening to that voice and to recognize that talent in the room.

And I actually I want to ask a couple of questions just in terms of the language you're using, because I find it really interesting. And I think our listeners will as well, because obviously I say racial and ethnic minorities because of the show, right? Because we're talking about in the essence of they have this print in all colors program and they talk about minorities and encouraging minorities. And then obviously noticing you saying racialized groups and things like that. So it's really interesting. So, yeah, just really value hearing more about your choice of words.

Tashan: Yeah, I think I think we have to be incredibly careful with the words that we use and the impact that they have. I think there is a recognition of a fact that actually someone can be a minority in a minority group in an organization. But I think when we start to batch people as you are a minority, you are this race, I think we begin to treat everyone like they're a monolith.

Like even in the episode, we begin to see this comparison between the two. And actually one is they're from two distinct backgrounds. They have completely different skills, etc. And so when I say racialized or even when I say minoritised, I use them intentionally because actually in a different country, it wouldn't be that right. And so I think it's really important to highlight this is something that's being put on these communities as opposed to something these communities are choosing.

Because again, even with the context of these courses, I think it's really important to think, OK, who's is the one that needs to do the work here? Obviously, it's both, but it has to be both. And the recognition does have to come from actually this racialized existence is a construct that's been put on someone because of a historic and systematic removal of access to resources. And so we've got to this place now where actually things are imbalanced because we've had a systematic and historic removal to that access. And now we're trying to rebalance it.

But for me, if we don't use that language, it's as if we're saying they chose to be this. That's for me, I'm not saying everyone will feel that. But they've chosen this. They just happen to be a minority. Well, they happen to be that because of all the stuff that happened before. And it's not to say we need to use shame or use a shame stick to kind of be like, this is the past. It's just recognition that this is something that's happening to them.

I was listening to this really great talk actually, and it was talking about people living with impairments. And the speaker called it people either living with disability or disabled people, depending on how they want to frame it. But the language that they use there, and it's the same that I hear with the concept of being of a race, is that someone is not disabled. The disabling factor is society and society makes someone disabled. And so in that same vein, we need to see the societal construct that is making that person be viewed in that way.

Sara: One million percent. Oh, my goodness. I feel like we could just package that up and it could be like a reel on its own.

Yeah, I agree with you. Language is so, so important. I know people talk about referencing it as like global majority, because actually, if you look at it from a global lens, you know, black and brown people are actually the majority. So it kind of doesn't make sense to call people that group the minority.

But as you were talking, it kind of reminds me of, people don't use as much, but the BAME acronym, so Black Asian Minority Ethnic. And that was huge, I would say probably like five, ten years ago. And everyone was using that. I think this Print in All Colors program from The Office is kind of like that, where you get everybody into this like huge umbrella, right? You know, the experiences of all black people or all Asian people or anyone that is considered an ethnic minority is so diverse, right?

Tashan: Yes.

Sara:  And we talked about this in the podcast before around intersectionality. So, you know, if we think about within the Asian community, there may be differences between someone who is from a Pakistani heritage versus someone with an Indian heritage. If you think about, you know, someone with an African heritage versus someone with a Caribbean heritage, there can be such distinct differences within those groups. So when you have BAME as a whole, it doesn't see that. And even when you use like one label within that, it's it's still such a blanket statement because actually you're not understanding the different diversity traits that people have.

And I also think about diversity characteristics in terms of like inherent and acquired, because I think about when you look at a workplace and you might think it looks diverse, right? You know, you can see Black people, you can see brown people, you can see lots of different types of faces in the room. But then people start talking and they start sharing their experiences, and then you kind of unpack a little bit about, oh, they've all gone to the same educational institutions. They all come from the same town. They all like the same things.

And you're like, actually, you might have some diversity, but actually everyone has a very similar lived experience, obviously not completely the same, but actually the ideas will be kind of similar. So really interrogating that diversity in the workplace is really important.

Tashan: I completely agree with you. Like Asia is a continent. Africa is a continent. So I don't know, when we when we group people together, I'm just like, what? Like, do you realize that is the exact same as saying an Italian, a French, a German, and English person are all one? And we would just never do that.

So that point of intersectionality is so important and especially understanding that paradigm versus non-visible characteristics as well, such as your gender. How does that interact with your lived experience, such as your sexual orientation? How does that interact? Because until we start to have some of these layers and deconstruct what that means in a really open, honest way, with programs like this, I think, yeah, to your point, it could even just be actually, are we just are we talking to people who are, in fact, actually quite similar? But the only difference is that they are from different racialized backgrounds, for example, that's being really reductive, right?

Obviously, they'll have varied experiences. But actually, what about people from working class backgrounds? What about that inclusion? What about people from backgrounds of perhaps first generation immigrants, second generation immigrants? Like when we start to deconstruct these days, people that haven't been to tertiary education. So when we start to think about all these different layers, actually, we think how inclusive are we and what and also when you think of the program design, actually, how do I need to make that program so that it caters for all people?

Because again, if you haven't had that thought from the beginning, these programs can be quite generic and actually is not suited for even different learning styles and people with that experience and have neurodivergence.

Sara: So yeah, yeah, if someone that's listening is thinking about starting these kind of programs, which is great, you know, you've recognized that there's a gap and something that needs to be fixed within the organization. What have you seen work well when it comes to like the beginning stages of setting up that program? And how do they do it where they are thinking about that intersectionality and thinking about the multitude of diversity that people may or may not have?

Tashan: That's such a good question. I think I think with everything that's happened over the last few years, because there is so much content out there, sometimes people, I think you have two extremes. You have the "I have no idea what I'm doing, I'm not going to do anything," and "I've read all the books, I'm the savior." And then you have everything in between. There's so many people doing great work as well.

But when we think of those two extremes, I think sometimes that we forget we can speak to our community of people and just have a conversation and ask, "What is it you need?" And for me, that's when it works really well, when that has been point one, where the consultation has been not "I'm telling you this is what you need to thrive." Because again, that's giving very much like, "OK, you could do better if..." OK, what about we ask them what is they need? And we can recognize the success traits of an organization.

And then there's two things that need to happen there. I'd imagine there's that. How do we create a course that takes you from here to here, the success traits? But then also part two of that is how do we deconstruct these success traits and understand what is actually in these? Are these success traits actually relevant for the organization? Or could we diversify these success traits and actually look at what we've got from our initial consultation and actually expand our definition of success?

And so that's where I think those two things come into play, using that conversation to design the course, but also using it to think, "Is our idea of success still relevant right now?" Every part of it, are there ways that we can enhance it and we can develop it. And then I think it's going for an iterative process of, "OK, you've designed your course," and doing a pilot. I think it's always great to do a pilot and take things slowly.

I think sometimes we want a quick fix and this work, this is life's work, unfortunately. Things aren't going to just change overnight. We're not going to do an unconscious, biased training and everyone is now going to remove bias because that's just not how it works. So actually, it's let's take our time, let's get it right and let's let's include people on the journey. So it's not a tell, it's a sharing. We're in this together. So we're coming as peers, not "I'm up here, you're down here. How can I bring you up?" It's where peers, how do we grow together?

Sara: I love that. And thinking about it in the context of this particular episode, and we'll watch a clip in a specific moment. But it makes me think about their Print in All Colours programme, because actually it took one of the members of staff to go around and speak to people directly and say, "Hey, did you know this programme exists?" But obviously, if they took the approach that you're talking about where, you know, you're working with people to kind of find out what is it that you need and how would you be able to succeed here? They would already know about the programme from the get go, so they wouldn't need to be told about it to then register.

And that is also waiting for somebody to identify them and tell them about it, which kind of is it kind of loses its purpose, right? If someone is part of the process, they know about it, then they can be part of it from the start rather than finding out about it later or they've missed a deadline or missed an opportunity. Because sometimes in this kind of, you know, not just these kind of programmes, but generally in the workplace, you know, there's that saying of "It's not what you know, it's who you know."

So that kind of instance, it would it would require someone telling you about this programme. And you might not necessarily know, especially if you're a huge global organization, there's so much stuff coming out. There's so many newsletters and internal, you know, memos coming out. So you're bound to just be like missing things. And yeah, I think that community led thing is so important. I think it helps build a sustainable programme because people feel invested because they've been part of it and they want it to succeed. There's this, when you were talking about bias, it made me think of a specific one, which is the IKEA effect. I don't know if you've heard of it before.

Tashan: No.

Sara: So essentially, they use a lot in the in kind of like a school programme. But the idea is that when you kind of go to IKEA, you buy flat pack furniture, you put it together, you feel quite proud of it, right? You're like, "Oh, my goodness, like, I'm like putting this all together with my little hammer and allen key or whatever else." And so you treat it with more respect and you kind of help the more because you've actually worked on it and built it.

So the IKEA effect is essentially to see any success of some programme happen or anything that you're kind of putting together. If you get people involved and build it with them, there is such a stronger chance that they will be so much more invested and will love what's being made because they've been part of it. You know, you can't help but feel proud of your own creations of sorts. So, you know, sometimes I know we talk about bias and unconscious biases in a negative way, but there's ways to use it positively, right? To get that buy in.

Tashan: I completely agree. There's so many like mind hacks and where we feel that sense of belonging that actually by including someone is that inclusivity lens, right? It is actually inclusivity is actually including them in the creation of like how can you be inclusive along every single touchpoint of this course creation and course sharing. So, yeah, I love the IKEA effect. I'm definitely going to reference that.

Sara: Please do! OK, let's let's do our first reaction to a clip from The Office. So in this particular scene, we obviously see an exchange between Gabe, Dwight and Daryl. And I won't tell you too much. Let's just watch it, see what happens and then we can chat about it.

(Clip from The Office)

Sara: So there's the specific clip that I wanted us to live react to. There's so many things in there that I'm like. 

Tashan: So much.

Sara: There's like microaggressions. There's like this idea around like meritocracy as well and like kind of devalue someone.

Yeah, there's just so much there. I'd love to hear your initial thoughts, Tashan.

Tashan: Yeah, honestly, there's so many so many different things. I think almost working backwards, that that sense of comparing the different racialised minority people within the organisation. And I don't know if there's a sense of like it's giving, they are now in competition with each other. And so that is the antithesis of what these schemes are meant to be. It's meant to be an empowering thing where people are given the opportunity to grow and shine a light.

But when they become thrust into, I guess, the corporate mechanism, they can become quite competitive and it can become, "Oh, I didn't necessarily get on the scheme. Does that mean I'm less than?" And it can sometimes have the reverse effect of perpetuating that less than narrative, which they're speaking about at the end, like "I'd rather this one, not that one."

Oh, so many, so many things. Also, just the beginning of that, even just that conversation of like, "Oh, I could be the next Michael, let's say." And that that's a positive aspiration vibe. Right.

But even the fact that, sorry, so many things, even the fact that Michael in this whole episode, Michael is not one having the conversation with either of these people is actually wild. Like it's all coming from like colleagues and peers. So it's all like intra office. And actually, where is the leadership? Where's the leadership? Where's the positive leadership and the positive encouragement of this?

And obviously, you have the person that's recruiting everyone. And again, that is their sole aim. There's a "I need to recruit someone and actually they just need to be someone that is this, someone that is a from racial minority." We're talking more this. Even when they reference, sorry, we're thinking more specifically racial minorities in a way that, "Oh, OK, yes, something for people." But the notion that it's exclusionary of other things, I think needs to be unpacked a bit further because actually even with racial racialized minorities, we are so many things. We're not a monolith.

Sara: A hundred percent. Yeah, the monolith point is really interesting. And there's another clip that we'll watch later, which I think will expand on that monolith point a lot more, because it's such a huge one. And I think it was great that Gabe, he was speaking to Darrell about this. And as you say, Michael Scott, the manager of the branch should be the one, you know, championing his employees and saying, "Hey, have you heard about this program? Anyone interested?"

Because there was not the only person in the office that could apply. There's quite a few people in the branch that could. But Michael is too busy trying to figure out if there's some random woman that likes him or not in the episode. But that's just.

Sara: Yeah, that one is a super problematic. It's really interesting because I think a lot of people would love to put people forward for these kind of programs and, you know, initiatives. And I feel like people do feel like clumsy or awkward of like, "Oh, I don't want to like make it a thing that I'm talking about someone's, you know, racial identity or the color of their skin." And it's like, "Oh, how do I how do I approach someone?"

Because, you know, unfortunately, a lot of organizations, they will have pretty bad managers, but there will be good initiatives that they're just not promoting. And so, you know, there might be people that know about stuff or want to put people forward because, you know, they respect their colleagues, they respect their peers, but not knowing how to approach it.

And I, in my opinion, I think sometimes in these situations, it's just recommending, you know, it's just sharing with people to say, "Look, I don't know how you feel about this program, but I've come across this, may or may not be of interest to you. Go ahead." And I think that's fine. I think people do worry about othering people and then end up not saying anything at all, which I think actually does more damage than anything else.

Tashan: I completely agree. Like I'm black. I know I'm black. 

Sara: Really?

Tashan: I do not speak for all black people when I say this. But what I will say is if you come to me saying, "I've seen this program for black professionals and I think you'd be really great for it," I have agency and I can say yes or no. And actually, sometimes I think and just the general for life as a coach, if I could say anything, is we have to begin to be OK with discomfort.

Not what problematic behavior and harmful behavior. So harm. But we have to begin to recognize what's the difference between harm and discomfort. So if someone was to say that to me and I was like, "Oh, actually, I don't want to be seen as this," I can say no. And then I have agency to say actually in future, "I don't necessarily want to find out this kind of programs." I have this conversation.

Equally, someone conversing with me has agency to say, "Is this something that you'll be comfortable with?" So I think permission asking is a great way for us to find out. I think we always think we have to have the answers, but actually we don't. So from the coaches talking, asking permission things is always a great way.

And then being OK with the discomfort if someone has a reaction that you don't necessarily want, because actually just because you want to in your world help someone, it doesn't mean that your help is what they need. And it doesn't mean that they want to receive that either. So if they're like, "No, sorry, don't care." That's OK.

Sara: Absolutely. Yeah, I think obviously in that particular clip, Dwight is exhibiting some problematic behaviors.

Tashan: I think it's harmful.

Sara: Understatement. I think there's something that we can actually learn from him in that situation where he is, he's almost saying things like doing things. I know he shouldn't be saying those things and doing those things. 

Tashan: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah

Sara: But I think sometimes I see from experience when working with people and working with clients that people, the intention is there. They want to do some great things, but they're so worried and scared of saying things.

You know, doing these, you know, putting people forward for these programs and they've got people like Dwight. And there are people like Dwight in workplaces that are like, "I don't know about this person. I don't know if they should do this." They were the fact that he makes the comment of like, "Oh, you know, he was driving a forklift 10 minutes ago." And I'm like, one, you know, that's just completely belittling someone's skill set and experience. Like, what does driving a forklift or not mean in terms of your ability and capability to fulfill a management role?

Like, if anything, if you can drive that thing around and, you know, organize like Darrell was really amazing in this show. 

Tashan: Yes!

Sara: He organizes the entire warehouse team and keeps them, I think keeps their morale up when they know they've got someone like Michael Scott managing them is really commendable. And he would be a perfect person for this kind of program. And I think even what you were saying at the beginning, I don't even think he's someone that needs to go on that program. He already has the skills. He already has the capability to do the role. It's just having those doors open for him to be put forward for those opportunities.

Tashan: Absolutely. It's just like shining a light. It's like it's actually just shining a light and being like, "Oh, you've been there the whole time. But now here's a door that where people might actually see you."

I think as well, I think the thing about Dwight and everything, it brings about the question of like status and privilege in a way. Now, I don't necessarily want to like deviate all the way into this privilege thing, because I do think there's like a delicate balance between like privilege shaming and like actually where we want to move to positive outcomes and positive change.

But the fact that he has the agency to go around and hunt for minoritized individuals around the company. One, also is giving when they say, "Oh, we couldn't find anyone for the job." Actually, if you try, you can. That's a positive version of it. But two, this is why the program exists, right? Because there are people in those positions that actually recognize the power status that they have, even if it's not active or if it is conscious like them saying it.

But actually, by their actions, they are. Because to approach someone and say, "I think you should do this," and to be like, "I think that's the right person. I think that's the wrong person." That is status. That is "I'm over here and I believe I have the right mindset, skills, resources, autonomy to decide what is best."

Sara: Yeah, because who is he to make that kind of comment? Like, how why does he know best in this situation? He's he's nobody here.

Tashan: He’s like, what?

Sara: Yeah, when I hear when I hear people talk about it, like whether it's in workshops or, you know, you overhear conversations and you will hear people talk about subject areas that I'm like, "You know nothing about this. You don't understand this fully." So, you know, when you hear a white person talking about race and that meritocracy point around, you know, "Oh, I just want to hire the best person for the role." And I'm just like, I just want to shake people because I'm like, "You're you're looking at this at such a lens of your own personal lived experience and your understanding of the world around you. You haven't thought to step outside of your own bubble and understand how differently people experience society and progression and opportunities because, well, I won't say anything bad, but you just they haven't bothered.

And that just, as you say, goes to show their privilege. And that's exactly what's happening in this situation. And I think that's sometimes what can happen when you start these programs where people have like a knee jerk reaction and like get defensive because I've seen people actually boldly claim, "Oh, I've missed out on opportunities because I'm a white cis man." And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, "I don't want to deny that someone's obviously had that experience. I’m also like I don't think I don't think you're really hearing what you're saying.

Like there is so many more opportunity for someone like you to progress and to find these roles and to be good for these opportunities. But when you are a black and brown or racialized individual, whether you are someone with a disability, sexual orientation, all of these things, these will add elements of barriers to these roles. And so these programs are around that equity point, right, really understanding the different points that people start within an organization and addressing those head on rather than just like kind of humming and aring around it and just continuing to keep the status quotes about really addressing that imbalance.

Tashan: Yeah, completely. Like I think it's it's a such a nuanced point in terms of that point around people being denied experiences, et cetera. I don't necessarily have a view on that right now, but what I will say is if we I just think let's just look at the numbers and I think about the macro, the micro. Yeah, for all intents and purposes, someone's individual experience could be marred by a sense of getting missed by opportunities as as as many as many others can. Right.

So I believe there is truth in that. But when we look at the macro and take a step back to your point when we actually think of different people's experiences. When I see these sentiments, sometimes I look at the companies, I'm like, "Your company isn't all black now. Your company isn’t all women now. Your company isn’t all LGBTQIA plus people now. What do you mean? Like your board is still 70 percent male. And it's just the same. Let's just stick to the facts."

When we're talking about our individualized experiences, though. Yeah, everyone has the right to say what they believe has happened to them. But let's stick to the facts and let's look at what's actually when we look at what's happened. And I know especially recently with like this, I think there's a big microscope on diversity and inclusion at the moment. And thinking about what the impact has been. And I think wholly we can see that the impact has been positive, but sustainable change is long term.

And so when we if we were to judge the life of a human being in terms of completeness and knowledge, etc., by the first three years, it would be like that doesn't make sense because that's a toddler. Right. Of course, they've only lived three years. That's like the lifespan is this. So I do think, again, using the macro, we need to begin to with these programs, with everything, take a step back and look at the long term view, not just how many people have improved, how many people have got promotions this year, how many people have said that they feel better in their jobs? That is really great. Short term metrics.

But really, your meeting of once a week talking about leadership skills is going to empower the individual. But also, if they're going back into a disempowered space, like, for example, Darryl, for example, and going back into a space that is disempowered, where locally, the people around you aren’t  encouraging you to be the version of yourself that that course that happened over there, empowered you to be. Well, where are you spending most of your time? So the work has to be done outside of the space as well. It's not enough just to put someone on a scheme and expect that everything's going to change when the environment with which they're in is the reason, part of the reason what why they're not growing where they need to be in the first place. You have to change the environment as well.

And I don't know, I don't have an equation, but I definitely bet my bottom dollar that the environment will be a stronger causal factor on the progression than say that one individual's skills. That's anecdotal, of course. But environment is just such an important factor to our habit creation, to our ability to grow and to our self-knowing and our ability to navigate. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah, it's huge. It's it's. Yeah, I mean, I loved everything you said. I think it's just so important to to really remind ourselves that these programs are great, but they're not great in isolation. They can only do so much, as you said, right? It needs to have a holistic view across the entire, entire global or wherever you are based organization, and particularly with this this this program, you know, the printing called the Print in All Colors Initiative happens and then everything goes back to the way that it was. Everyone goes back to the same positions.

And the person that actually gets through is Kelly. And she just comes back in these like really cool suits and she looks amazing. But in terms of like progression and roots for her to be, you know, an executive, that there's not there's not real change there. You know, Michael Scott continues to be manager. And I think that's why people get disillusioned in organizations, because, you know, people that are minoritized in an organization will do all the right things, right?

They will do all the things that their managers tell them to go and do this program, do this coaching, go for this program, do this stuff. And then they do, but nothing changes. Everything stays the same because they've done all the work. And that's what we were saying at the beginning. Everyone has these skills already. These people are already there. It's opening the door and putting these people into those positions of power, because that's that's the change that we need to see.

Tashan: A hundred percent. I think I think these courses could do. Actually, I think there's lots of great courses, to be honest. I think it is really difficult in the workplace to manage expectations just because things aren't linear. And so sometimes you can do these things and it sells dreams that that were never going to be true, because it goes back to that initial point that I was making.

If if your success criteria is in and of itself biased in some way or is is not communicated with complete clarity, that it's a known success criteria, an objective known success criteria that is shared and someone can work towards, then you're always there's always going to be this mismatch of people who think they're doing the right thing and they're growing and actually they're not exhibiting the behaviors, the characteristics that are deemable of a promotion because there's not that clarity or objectivity or there is a bias and there's a particular type of person that fits the mold.

And it means maybe masking, changing some parts of yourself, becoming more of this type of person, which might be more difficult for some than others. But until that clarity is there, it's I don't know, there's always going to be some imbalance.

Sara: Yeah, I agree. Shall we shall we watch the last clip? Yes, the second clip. And then, yeah, we'll chat about that. And sadly, that will mean we'll come to the end of the podcast, which I honestly cannot believe has come around so quick. So let's watch the same. We'll see. We'll see what happens.

So a very short clip, but I just think it's one is really funny. So basically, it's obviously Kelly, who never dresses in a kind of Indian outfit or Sari in the office ever never wears a bindi as far as I'm wearing, unless it's like an event like the Diwali episode. But she obviously dresses up and then sits down. And it's so interesting, because that exchange between her and Gabe, who is a white man, is quite indicative of what happens sometimes.

Because as we were saying around being a monolith, it just takes one person to say, "Oh, I'm so hugely offended by something." And that person will be like, "Okay, that's everyone finds that offensive. So I'm never going to talk about that." And then they kind of, as you say, lean into that, they don't sorry, they they they are away from that discomfort, and then not talk about it ever again. And you know that they kind of feel clumsy and awkward talking to people, you see in their faces like, "Oh my god, there's a brown person here. What do I say? What do I do? Like, it's gonna be okay."

And but the flip is, you know, I've been in workshops and conversations where someone will just jump in and be like, "You know, I don't care what you ask me, ask me everything about my identity. You know, I'm fasting, ask me about it. Oh, I'm this, ask me about it." And I'm like, "I'm happy for you. And I'm glad that you want to be open. That's amazing. But not everybody is like that." And I think that's the danger of seeing, you know, your friend or your peer who represents a community and then thinking that represents the entire community's perspective.

Tashan: I completely agree. I think it goes back to that point around being okay with discomfort and recognizing discomfort versus harm. And actually being able to discern between those two things.

I, again, don't speak for everyone. But I, as a coach, it's my job to be curious. And it's my job to ask questions. And it's my job to think carefully about those questions, but also just speak openly and use use clean land clean and like inclusive language, right. But if we just go back to basics, and like the interrogatives of like, who, where, what, how, why, when, I think I covered most of them. And go back to literally just like the basics that many of us were exposed to, of course, everyone's had varying different experiences, but many of us were exposed to, we can deconstruct it and make it less complicated.

And combining that with asking permission, I definitely think it will give us a lot more communication to say, "I'm super curious about your culture, but I didn't want to offend you. Is it alright if I asked you a question around Eid?" And then you can be like, "No," or they can be like, "Yeah." And so it's actually just that asking permission. And just like, "I noticed that..." and it could be sharing. I think always sharing an observation in a neutral, in a neutral way is always really powerful as well. "Is this like I noticed in the meeting yesterday, you felt you seemed quite uncomfortable when we're talking about this topic? Is that something you wanted to talk about?"

And they can be like, "No." And actually might be like, "Is that is that something you'd like to talk about with someone, but maybe not me, etc.?" Actually, maybe you haven't fostered that relationship. And so I think it's just that curiosity, I think is a wonderful tool to help people navigate through what can be this messy middle of like, "I'm super ally to I'm unconsciously, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing."

Sara: Yeah, and I think taking a step back in terms of, as you were saying, understanding the relationship that you have with that individual, because there could be power dynamics at play. Because even when you ask that question, like, "Do you mind me asking...?" if you are a leader, and that's, you know, your employee, the dynamic means that they might feel they they have to tell you that obligated to share that with you, they might not have that safety to like, say no.

So it's yeah, taking that step back to go, "Okay, what is the dynamic here? What's the relationship like? And being mindful, as you say, about the specific language that you use, and being okay, if someone says no, you know, and knowing that doesn't mean that everyone is going to say no, it just means that specific individual doesn't want to share that with you. And that's absolutely okay.

Tashan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. That specific individual, again, it's not this individual does not represent that whole group. And I think that's what that's what comes up a lot is that notion of like, "Oh, I had this one bad experience." And this isn't just to do with, say, just minoritized groups, etc. This happens in all walks of life where our brain does this, right, we have an experience.

And our brain is constantly trying to assess threat, safety, belonging connection, and looking for cues of that essentially, to say, "Can I be my authentic self here or not?" And so if you've had an experience that rejects that, then actually, you might continue to do that behavior. So I do think mindfulness is an incredibly important tool as well, too, because I think it is very natural, our brain is evaluative, and it's judgmental. Like it's always judging, like no one is not judgmental.

So actually, just recognizing that and being okay with judgment, it's just not staying in judgment. It's like, "Oh, my God, the last time I did this, this happened. And actually, in that moment, you can actually recognize that and be like, "Yeah, that did happen. That was really bad. That made me feel uncomfortable. But that isn't this moment. And so am I going to choose to ask this question?" And you still might be like, "No, I don't feel comfortable." But at least as you keep having that mindful process of just like interjecting and what under where you are in your thoughts, before your actions, then you might get to the point where, "No, actually, that moment doesn't need to define my every interaction now."

But that mindfulness, I don't know, I think it's such an important point, because I think it's really unrealistic for us just to expect everyone just to change overnight or to recognize all of these things in this specific area, when in every other area of life, we don't do it. And we have all these biases that lead us to behave in a certain way.

Sara: You know, I could listen to you talk all day, to be honest, this has been so so wonderful, honestly.

Tashan: It's like season three. 

Sara: 100%. So as I said at the beginning, and you've had the whole episode to think about it. Yes. Yes. If you had a world's best boss. Well, a version of that yourself. What would yours be?

Tashan: Okay, I've been thinking about this. And I'm gonna say the answer that I think is truthful, rather than the answer that I think is like, "Oh, my God, that's great marketing." World’s best coach. I think I'm world's best energizer. I'm really able to like put a lot of energy into people, concepts and things and bring it to life. And I think I'm one of the best at doing that. And it's just natural to me. Like, I love I just love I love being energized. Like, this is my favorite thing. I love getting excited about things. So yeah, so yeah, world's best energizer.

Sara: I love that. And I agree with you, because I think, yeah, I was, I was feeling really excited about the podcast, but I just feel even more energized after our chat, because sometimes with being a podcast host, I'm like, "Okay, nervous." And like, you know, you're you're so on the game throughout the episode. And now I'm just like, I'm ready and raring to go for the rest of the day. So I'm just grateful for you sharing your energy. I'm sure I'm sure I'll be buzzing as well.

Tashan: Yeah, no, this has been so great. Your energy has been amazing. So honestly, thank you so much for having me.

Sara: Of course. And I know you talked about the world's best coach. And I know you talked about this program that you're working on. Do you want to share a little bit with our listeners about that in terms of, yeah, they can learn more and be in touch with you in terms of the stuff you do?

Tashan: Yeah, so a big passion area of mine is helping people from underserved communities. Hello, I'm here. And, but one of my things is, is about strengths. And a lot of this time, there's this, like, that's why I hate the word minority or mine sometimes, because there's this lack story that gets perpetuated around being a minority sometimes.

And it's not to say we should deviate from the facts. But what I want to work on, is creating a strength-based narrative and helping people to be their best, most impactful self. I've done my, like, education and basically performance, coaching, getting people to be their best. And so for me, it's like, how do I bring that and create these environments? So my course is going to be a four-week course that helps people from underserved communities. And that can be any community, right? It's not specific. To understand what their strengths are, to capitalise on their strengths, and then to create the habits and systems that are going to allow them to basically galvanise on whatever their goals are for their life.

But I think it all starts from that story of self and really positioning it to "What am I best at?" And if I was my best always, what does that look like? So yeah, that's my exciting things. But yeah, Relyte, R-E-L-Y-T-E. So www.relyte.co.uk. You can contact me in there. You can find me on Instagram with Relight coaching, or you can find me at LinkedIn with Tashan Nicholas. So yeah, any of those.

Sara: Woo! Amazing. Tashan, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in for another episode of Out of the Office. Thanks, everyone.