S2 EP02 - Frame Toby
with Dee Jas
Join us as we unpack the hilarious yet revealing episode of The Office, "Frame Toby" (Season 5, Episode 9), with special guest Dee Jas, founder of We Are Colourfull.
We dive into the chaotic dynamic between Michael Scott and HR rep Toby Flenderson, exploring the tension and mistrust that echoes real-life misconceptions about HR. Dee shares insights from his two decades in HR on how leaders can bridge the gap between management and HR and why involving HR early is key to building a thriving, inclusive culture. Listen in for actionable takeaways that can transform how you engage with your people team!
Key Takeaways
Building Trust Through Action
Delivering on promises in HR is crucial for building trust with both leadership and employees. Consistency is key.
HRβs Role in Inclusive Culture
HR is more than policiesβitβs about creating an inclusive culture where people feel seen, supported, and valued.
Leadership Need HR Support
Even senior leaders need coaching and guidance to manage teams effectively. HR plays a critical role in empowering leadership.
Meet Dee
Dee (he/him) is the founder of we are colourfull - a consultancy and media platform that aims to increase visibility and the inclusion of the LGBTQ community and People of Colour in the workplace as well as wider society - using data, storytelling and design thinking. Prior to this, Dee held HR Leadership roles in creative organisations inc. the BBC, Net-A-Porter and Girl Effect.
Keep in the Loop
We process your personal data as stated in our Privacy Policy. You can unsubscribe at any time.
The Transcript
Sara: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Out of the Office. I have a wonderful and dear friend coming on to talk about this particular episode with me, and that's Dee. Dee, would you like to say hello and introduce yourself?
Dee: Thank you so much for having me, Sara, and yes, hello everyone! Iβm Dee, the founder of We Are Colourful, a culture and inclusion consultancy that really looks on the experiences of people of colour and the LGBTQ+ community, with a bit of HR thrown in once in a while as well.
Sara: Beautiful! I want to give the listeners a bit of background in terms of how we met. I don't know if you remember when and how we met, Dee. Do you remember?
Dee: Yeah.
Sara: I don't know if you remember way back when, and this is just a testament to how social media can be such a great tool to connect with people. Sometimes social media can make us feel so disconnected, but I basically started an Instagram called Belonging, and it was all about talking about my story as a person of colour in London, in the UK, and addressing questions like, "Where are you really from?"and just bringing light to those issues. I came across your handle, Colourfull, and I was like, "Oh my goodness, I am so obsessed!" It spoke to me because Iβm represented by the people you're trying to connect with. So I was like hey, slid into your DMs, and yeah, we met. I think you went off to India, and I thought we probably wonβt connect, but then you came back, and you were like, "Hey, I'm back now," and I was like, "Yeah, letβs meet up." It was so lovely, and that must have been five years ago now?
Dee: Almost. I remember that we met near Liverpool Street. I think we both happened to be there for a meeting or something at that point in time when we met up. Then the world went into lockdown, and actually what I really appreciate about our friendship, along with someone else, Derinβwho Iβm sure will one day also be on this podcast, I have no doubtβis that the three of us I felt like, all working in this space, became close. You were a real support network to me, particularly during the pandemic. A: Not only were we having our own experience of the pandemic, but the DEI issues coming up at that time, that we were expected to respond to, felt like we held a great space for one another just to talk, share, and support. That friendship has been invaluable, and Iβm really glad it lives on today.
Sara: Oh, trying to make me cry already!
No, Iβwhen I look back on that, I have such fond memories. We started the Wake Up Call newsletter as well. We did that for six months, which was so much fun. I think it actually, it gave us a purpose to having those regular meetings, but we spent most of the time when we would be on a video call catching up and leaning on each other, saying, "Oh my goodness, this pandemic is taking it out of me," or "Work is being like such a struggle." so it was such a great yeah, I feel like you, me, and Derin created this unique bond, which Iβll forever be grateful for.
Dee: Ditto.
Sara:Now Derinβs having a baby, which just feels amazing and so sweet. Hopefully, once she settles down, sheβll be a guest on the podcast as well.
Dee: Her and Baba, they can come together.
Sara: Oh, that would be so cute. So, letβs dive into the episode and talk about all things The Office. Youβre a fan of The Office? Youβve seen the show, right?
Dee: Yeah! Great TV, and so smart. Comedy like that is really hard to pull off, and the fact that they did it so successfully in the U.S. for so many consecutive seasonsβgenius writing.
Sara: Absolutely. In earlier episodes, I talked about how there are writers and producers of the show who have done it with the show for the first time. They've not actually had experience before doing it. So, like Ryan and Mindy, two of the characters in the show, they also wrote episodes, and that was something they first did with The Office which I think is a testament to how wonderful and brave the show is to bring on writers who havenβt written before. It just goes to show if you take a bit of a punt on junior members or people who havenβt done something before, you might get something extraordinary, which the The Office is.
So, because of your background in HR, I thought it would be perfect to talk about is obviously Toby and Michael and their dynamic because they completely butt heads in the entirety of the show. I thought the episode weβd look at today is Frame Toby, which is from season five, episode nine. And essentially as a bit of background for our listeners, Michael Scott, the regional manager, finds out Tobyβs come back, and heβs just up in arms about it. Heβs really unhappy about why Toby is back in the office.
Dee: Yeah, I was going to say, wow, just seeing that scene again makes me think, "Gosh, what did Toby ever do to you?" Toby is just trying to do his job! Let Toby crack on. I think I can speak on behalf for a lot of HR folks when I say we are often just trying to do our job and weβre trying to do it really well, hopefully trying to help both the organization and its people have a good experience. As much as there can be tricky employees, thatβs the realityβsometimes managers are tricky as well. Whilst Iβve never seen that exact situation, Iβve definitely experienced at one place I shall not name, a real sense of trying to not let HR into the room. Management team would have a meeting trying to keep HR out of the room. Theyβd have a meeting, make decisions that impact people, and youβd literally be trying to find out after the fact, like, "Okay, what was decided? Whatβs going to happen?" Trying to get ahead of the curve and you think, I wonder why?. Maybe they were worried weβd say no, we might not support it or propose a different course of action. To me, thatβs a manager who doesnβt understand what HR can actually offer in that weβre creative, problem-solvers, and can be really helpful if you involve us. Anyway, long story short, HR deserves better.
Sara: 100% I think people have a real and I think some people have maybe misconceptions about what HR is for and I've heard this in in different roles and different clients different circles that you know HR is there to protect the company at all cost it doesn't care about people and then we've seen this like moved from calling the HR department HR to the people team or people operations to try and I guess humanise it even though HR has the word human in it but I think that almost HR is would you say almost like bad PR and that's kind of maybe what's happened here and people kind of misunderstand the true Nature of HR or do you think there's been a journey maybe that HR is shifted in recent years.
Dee: Such a great question like I think back to when I started my career so personnel is what it was called then and that's sounds so awful like it's a and it felt very I guess abdomen heavy process policy heavy and at that time it was being rebranded into HR so and I think HR was almost two corporate if I think about it now because yes like human resources like just that we're called resources like technically I guess the harsh truth is that we are a unit of resource in a capitalist system and let me not even go down that route but anyway he was also and I think that made it feel slightly cold and actually hate Charles practice was more about the best out of people to help a business succeed or is now as you say people and Culture feels more balanced you're thinking about an environment that's inclusive and enabling you're thinking about how do you help the organisation succeed but not at the cost of an employee or a person and there well-being and what they may need to succeed and grow. I feel like that's definitely shifted at least from my experience since I started my career.
Sara: Yeah, how many years have you been in HR?
Dee: I feel like this is this is like you know when this comes up at a dinner party in someone else and I love this part generally people think I'm younger than I actually am so it works out well but I did think what if it was the other way round people thought I was younger and at chat to keep no if they thought I was older. Anyway I've been in HR for about almost like HR and DE&I IN total career it will have been 20 years which sounds wild to say that out loud.
Sara: Thatβs amazing! To be in HR for 20 years, not just because itβs HR, but because in todayβs age, we see people doing different jobs, freelancing in this direction and doing all different types of stuff and jumping to different roles which is great but it is also great to stay in one career too. Thinking about Toby, when I was reflecting on him and you know he talks about why he got into HR, not in this episode but a different one and he was part of a monastery, and it's quite a funny story. He fell in love with a woman and decided to obviously marry her so he had to leave the monastery. He then got divorced and thought βwhat can I do now?β And then was like βah Iβll do HRβ. So, he doesnβt really have like a passion for HR and heβs just like doing it to just do it. I guess I'm I've never really asked you and I guess I'm curious to know like what was your journey into HR like what motivated you or pushed you to yeah to go into this industry.
Dee: So I think there's definitely that perception of HR that you mentioned and I think there are many people that have ended up in HR because of a kind of as you say misconception about what the profession is like I'm good with people or I'm a people person and I think those things take you to a point that actually working in HR or people and culture is so much more different. So my background is in psychology so it was a choice. I remember that as part of my degree I had to do an industrial placement and I did that at British Airways back in 2001 and I remember when I started about two months in unfortunately September the 11th happened.
And before the airline industry obviously it was like incredibly shocking and I mean you know beyond the tragedy itself I guess that was one of the sectors that was impacted the most and it meant that I'd be gone there to help with recruitment but actually recruitment was frozen and all of a sudden the organisation was going through significant change and my role changed overnight into helping with organisational change, supporting people who were leaving the business, helping kind of support the processes to match people into new roles and I remember at that time thinking wow like actually BA in general at the time was doing its best to look after its people but it had to do some difficult things for the organisation and I guess I saw in that moment how I guess business objectives and taking care of people came together and I was like oh this is really interesting this isn't what I thought HR was and I became much more interested in that side of HR and then the rest is the rest is history.
Sara: I love that. Yeah I think right now you know we're in 2024 and you know whilst it's not 9-11 there is so much change and so much difficulty across many different organisations and you know you're hearing about redundancies left right and centre it's a really challenging landscape and I speak to so many people and friends who are struggling to find jobs but also people that are in the people profession and are in HR are also finding it really difficult because one they're having to be responsible of you know letting people go and making people redundant and some of these people might be their friends people that worked with for a really long time and that must be so hard because you know as you were saying like you go into a role and obviously like for the most part like people that are in HR really care about people they want to to help people they want to create a culture that's inclusive and where there's a sense of belonging.
But when it comes down to like business operations sometimes like it is a it's a tough job like you have to make some really tough decisions and I think I wouldn't have the stomach for it I think I would really struggle to do some of the things that HR is responsible for. And I yeah I really admire yeah a lot of people that I've been in HR and have had to go through such tumultuous times and things like that in terms of crisis because you know that's almost like the backbone of the business right you have to keep it together to like help things feel like okay there's a sense of stability there's a sense of like it's going to be okay and sometimes the leadership isn't quite, they can sometimes feel so removed you know they're they're living their own different life and so when you're a different part of the company, a great way to feel that connection is with the the people team or the HR team in my mind anyway um I don't know if you yeah if you agree or any reflections on what I shared.
Dee: I think you're right I think that what's required of like someone who works in this function now is so different to what was like you know you've got the challenges of like hybrid working you've got the challenges of what I say DEI because there are challenges that organisations have to address and all of these things are actually intertwined they're not actually separate if you do if you start from a foundation and build like thoughtfulness inclusion etc into your culture and practise it actually you can start to impact all of these things in a positive way in a simple way as well. I think is when you're trying to like kind of rectify lots of things that haven't been addressed in the past which can make it really challenging for people professionals because you walk into a company you don't know what the legacy is what the culture is you're figuring it out whilst you settle in and I think with leaders as well I think sometimes we forget that yes they can be removed and of course they should be held to account I think sometimes I've been really surprised in my HR career at actually how much coaching support even senior leaders require to do what I would have considered maybe a relatively routine thing like a feedback conversation or announcing certain things which of course if it's more difficult we all feel the nerves but I remember thinking wow like they're just humans just like the rest of us.
I thought they were like it was special and they knew lots and lots of stuff that I didn't know and actually after a while I was like uh-huh like you know your thing and I know my thing and I can play a role in helping you hopefully do your role better to be of better service to your team.
And so yeah I think that's the kind of beauty of when like the people and culture function is working people trust us we're brought into decisions we're seen as helpful enablers as opposed to how like Michael seems to feel about Toby which is that how do I get this man out of my office ASAP, not a vibe not a vibe.
Sara: Definitely not a vibe. Let's watch clip two because there's a question based on what you've been sharing I want to ask and I think the clip the second clip gives us good context to jump from
But there's so many so many clips from this this particular episode that are so meme-able is that a word? Giff-able? I don't know because I love I love that clip of Michael and it just made me think because he's on the phone to I can't remember the guy's title but he's basically in the the HQ he's in the headquarters he's not in the regional office so obviously Michael's as the regional manager is reaching out to this person in HQ to go I'm really struggling with my my HR rep and he's like you're just gonna get on with him you just gotta get on with him and I feel like there's like that disconnect and when you were saying about you know remembering that the leaders are human and sometimes like people get into those positions because, one yeah you know they're really good at their day-to-day job right and they do the things really well but the higher and higher up you go I feel like the more and more people you have to manage and you know connect with and deal with in some regard.
And that is kind of not always there and people don't really know how to to deal with it because one Michael Scott is a pretty bad manager but also this this manager within the HQ he isn't really being attentive or trying to understand Michael's perspective he's just like you just got to get on with him he's always like done with his like nonsense he's like get on with it which I appreciate because I think if anyone had to manage Michael Scott they probably would feel that way pretty pretty pretty rapidly but yeah that was just my reflection from that and I guess uh from what you said I just thought it would be funny to show that second clip
Dee: I feel like yeah that that's the thing about The Office which makes it so brilliant I don't know if you feel this is that sometimes it's like you know they say truth is inspired fiction like I've seen certain scenes both in the UK version and the US version and I'm like I've lived a version of this or heard a version of this or observed a version of this and I think that's why it's such a genius comedy because it's not so far from the truth like I think we all know a character like the people that we're seeing we've all played or been in a situation like that and so even just what we saw now I was like yep yep yep yep I remember some of it.
Sara: I mean yeah reflecting on those times and if there's people that are listening I guess that are either in predominantly either in people roles or HR and they're coming up against their managers or the senior leadership in that kind of similar way, do you have any advice for people like that or like what what would you recommend they do to kind of get through and connect with their managers and their leaders because it you know you can only do so much until like that barrier is just going to break down every part of the the business, I guess.
Dee: Yeah, I think a few things sort of come to mind and I'll try and keep it simple because I'm kind of I guess I'm reflecting on things that I found challenging.
I think the first is just being really good at what you do like actually if you say you're going to do something do it and that's probably true of any profession but I think HR sometimes gets a bad rep like things you ask a query and you don't quite get a straight answer or things go into the ether so if I think back on it I made sure that I, if I was taking even if it was the smallest thing like get someone's contract ready I would make sure it was done done ahead of schedule and it was like bang on like they just so that they felt that be someone we can trust because I think you have to build trust somewhere and that I think comes through the delivery and the quality of your work.
I think the second part for me was around do I really understand the business that I'm in, like do I care and how could people potentially influence some of those outcomes so if we've got a team that's got a lot of people leaving like how can I use that and talk about that in a way that talks about business stability that team's performance and how it can drive x y z like you have to sometimes meet people where they're at and I think that's the language of inclusion and so in a business context it's trying to find out what will connect me to this leader that will make them think about HR and people as a useful asset as opposed to something not.
And I think the final thing is like to have a point of view I remember a manager said to me who I really respected like if you're in meetings and you're in a room like it can feel really scary particularly if you're going to say something that might not be the common position that people are going to take and of course there's a manner in which you convey these things but I would often talk about like through the lens of like our values or our culture like this doesn't feel right or this makes me feel uncomfortable and I and here's why, and I think sometimes actually a leader just needs to be slowed down they're just so quick at what they're trying to do they just need a moment to pause and I think that's where we can be really helpful.
And then the final bit is like actually despite all of those things and if it's still not working then you need to take your talent elsewhere because you'll probably be in an organisation that stifles you and I think I learned that the hard way at certain points of my own career and I'm really glad I took the decision to vote with my feet because it led me to like the best opportunities and like the right places and like I said here I am.
Sara: Here you are and Colourful is a true testament to yeah everything that you do which I think is wonderful and thinking about Colourful and kind of that angle of it. I was just reflecting as a person of colour and actually someone who is queer when I think about like to be honest previous roles there was never really a HR or people department like I worked in quite small agencies so if you had an issue it was like oh okay cool I'm just gonna take it on the chin and move on like I can't really speak to anyone about it.
But I guess my stereotype of HR and people people is it's very white and in my mind female dominated in terms of it's a lot of women. I was watching a show at the weekend Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt which I find absolutely hilarious and there's a clip where there's the guy one of the characters brings in all the HR from the team so he basically walks up to the reception desk and says I need to speak to Linda and HR and the receptionist is like which one and he's like all of them and then there's like this row of Lindaβs from HR just sat at the table it's absolutely hilarious.
I was like that is my stereotype I guess of HR maybe not so much now because obviously I've connected with so many people in the profession and my idea of it is definitely different but you know I feel like there's probably a lot of people out there that have maybe stereotypical views and I maybe rightly so because there isn't that diversity within the profession, but as a person of color and you know being queer myself like I think it would be a barrier for me if I was trying to raise concerns around like discrimination or microaggressions and things like that if the person I was going to was like no offence to any Lindaβs but like that kind of stereotypical Linda and HR type thing. And not saying that they wouldn't understand but it definitely puts you on the back foot where you're like oh are they going to understand are they going to get it are they going to dismiss it or is it never going to be brought up or never going to be kind of resolved, so sometimes I think yeah there must be people out there that are like you know what it's not even worth bringing this up because yeah HR isn't going to understand.
Dee: Yeah, it's such an interesting point because I think like with things well I guess like HR is an extension of an organisation's culture that's my belief not everyone will agree with that position but I think you know how HR often acts and behaves is should be in my mind directly influenced by an organisation's values and so, if there's a disconnect you're right I think people in general regardless of their backgrounds probably won't come to HR. But you're right, when then you layer it on with like identity I think that can present some further challenges. I think what I'm really heartened by is that a lot of the people professionals that I've met as you like also said Sara is like, you know I'm going to speak to the stereotype typically you think of a white woman of a certain age working in HR, I've met many of those people through the kind of work that I do and actually they're A: really interested and care about DEI which is amazing so in and of itself is a curiosity.
I think there's also a sense of understanding that identity so much more complex than just gender and race which is helping people think about DEI in a more fuller sense which gives me hope for the work that we're all doing and the changes we're trying to make and I think the third thing is actually like HR I don't know how much the statistics have changed but of course it needs to hold itself accountable to being a diverse profession because I can say for a fact in my early career when there were less people of colour for example in the HR profession we just naturally gravitated towards each other and we would share experiences and of course things that happen to us within the profession but also like our views as you say of like if someone put in a discrimination complaint or something we were able to look at it with a little bit more unpicking and like oh yeah maybe we can relate to a situation so there's a little bit more there, we should ask this question if we're going to review it etc etc. I think you can't substitute lived experience but I think you can be curious and take an interest and do the work that we're asking people to do do the real work and use that to build a reputation as an inclusive function.
Sara: Love it, so basically anyone in HR there is there is things that we can do and I think that's the challenge in the DEI space is you know people feel like oh if I can't relate to it how am I going to connect with that individual but as long as you have empathy and compassion and actively listen then that's I think the biggest steps you can take to try and be an inclusive organisation and an inclusive HR rep or people person.
Dee: Definitely, yeah. I think yeah that's that's spot on I think there's always something we can do it's not as, I think find it too hard and to throw your hands up as a HR function say oh my god like we don't have that experience it's hard for us then if that's the case then go out and seek expertise if you need some help then do that and that's why people like yourselves exist Sara and like you know shameless plug for me but also like for the other brilliant people that are out there like yeah like I've I've definitely been asked to come in and help on things that are relating to say an LGBTQ issue and they said actually we don't have that expertise in the team we'd love to add this because we need some help through this particular problem and I'm like that's really thoughtful that's really intentional and yes I get some business out of it but more importantly you'll get more credit in the bank for yourselves as a function for handling these things really carefully and I think that's how you build credit and that's how you get like kind of good outcomes so yeah.
Sara: 100% and I think the people in your organisation can see that intention and they can sense that someone is trying and as you say build that trust and credibility and that's I guess that's all we can do really that's the most important thing we can do. I don't know how the time has run away but it has so as we as we tie up, firstly is there anything you want to mention, about the office or Toby or Michael Scott before we wrap up um anything else you want to mention.
Dee: I think I would just say that something you said already Sara which is like I think people professionals have a really tough job and that's not to say everybody's perfect like in any profession you've got your good ones and you've got your not so good ones. But I think generally most people people that I've come across in my career are trying to do their best and trying to do the right thing so I would ask people who don't work in that function and maybe you want to interact with that function like go with a leap of faith and you might be surprised by what you might get back and actually to all business leaders out there like get the best out of your people and talent teams like talk to them like get them involved and you'll get so much more like bang for your back because I think actually it's one of the best professions to work in I've really enjoyed it I've not hated my HR career and you just get to meet fascinating people and do fascinating things anyway that's my shout out for HR give them some love if you're not giving them something already.
Sara: Beautiful, love that! So what I'm asking all my guests before we kind of sign off is in the show Michael Scott has world's best boss mug that he gifts himself which is obviously hilarious so I'm asking you and all my guests if you were to buy yourself your own world's best something mug what would yours say.
Dee: You know what like, without even pinching I kind of knew where this question was going and I was like I know my answer which is I'd say world's best interior designer you've seen my fat Sara and I'm not gonna say I'm gonna say proudly my flat is banging and I've got good taste.
Sara: It is gorgeous, oh my goodness honestly it's just perfect like the sofa colours the colour palette like even the what do you call it when you put it in the the ventilator thing like even that was like a really intricate in my house is just like the normal slats like really ugly like plasticky white thing and yours is like this really elaborate like gold looking cute thing which I love. Is it gold?
Dee: One of them is gold and the others are like plaster but I would say like world's best interior designer that's what I would have on my mug.
Sara: Rightly so, thank you Dee for this this has been really wonderful, I'm sure our listeners will want to find out more about you and the work that you do so yeah where can they find out more where should they follow you tell us tell us everything.
Dee: Yeah so, I have a kind of profile on LinkedIn so you can find me if you search my name um and it's linked to colourfull so you can see like our LinkedIn page there's a website which is uh wearecolorful.com and that's also our Instagram handle and Twitter handle as well so We are Colourfull.
Sara: Awesome thanks everyone for tuning in uh for today's episode we hope you enjoyed it I certainly did and we will see you at the next one thanks everyone!