S2 EP06 - Email Surveillance

Sara: Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Out of the Office. Today we have the wonderful guest, Andreea. Andreea, say hello and introduce yourself to our listeners.

Andreea: Hi everyone, I'm Andreea and apart from my work persona, I actually really enjoy hiking, running, so you always seeing me going on adventures. I'm really excited to be here with you.

Sara: Yeah, I'm excited for you to be here too, and I feel like I remember your introduction. So, Andreea and I met on the Culture Amp People Geek Slack community. There are quite a few guests that have been on the show that I've met through that channel, but I do remember your introduction, and you had Dungeons and Dragons on there. I was like, I've always wanted to play, I really want to understand the game. It just looks like so much fun, so we do need to find the time for us to actually play. It seems like such a cool game.

Andreea: But one of the things that people don't know about it is that they think that you're done in, like, three hours, which is far from the truth. Like, we spend—the groups that I'm playing with—we spend probably close to 12 hours.

Sara: Wow, that's so cool.

Andreea: So yeah, you have to give the whole day. Like, the game takes about a whole day, and if I could, I would play non-stop, but obviously, I can't.

Sara: So, I feel like if I could, I genuinely would love Claudia Winkleman's job. I feel like I could be really good on The Traitors. I think that could be a different career for me.

Andreea: I think so, and I think you would be. Like, what if you just, like, leave everything behind, and you just, like, start creating your own games? Because I feel like you have that affinity towards it. Like, definitely, so you should definitely explore this.

Sara: I feel like everyone's getting an insight into why we're friends because we just love to think about games. But, like, when you think about, like, Monopoly or certain card games, you have, like, specific rules within your own family or friendship groups. So, it's like, oh, what are your rules? And you almost have to, like, lay the groundwork of, like, what do you do? And this is what we do. Shall we share, shall we not, shall we do it your way or my way? Which is always interesting to hear what people do and don't do.

Andreea: Yeah, I think that Monopoly is the most ruthless game out there, and I've seen people playing it in so many ways that, yeah, I don't want to get involved with it. I don't think—you know, that's, like, my big no-no. If people start playing it, I'm, like, leaving the room because I know that it's going to be an absolute chaos and mess, and I don't want to be part of it.

Sara: Which actually brings us nicely onto the topic of boundaries because today's episode we're actually looking at Season Two, Episode Nine, Email Surveillance. And as a bit of background to the episode, the manager, Michael, he upsets everyone in the office because he actually starts to keep tabs on, like, people's emails. And he can, like, see who sent what and what's been said. You've got Pam, one of the characters, trying to kind of hear the gossip or trying to understand if maybe there's two other characters that are having an affair and getting off with each other in the office. And then as part of the email surveillance from the manager, he finds out that there is a barbecue that one of the employees is throwing, but he hasn't been invited. Everyone in the office has got an invite except for the manager. And he decides to turn up, which is pretty embarrassing but very much in Michael Scott fashion. So, we're going to watch a small clip from the episode before we dive in and talk about all things boundaries. So, let's do it. Bring it on, Michael Scott.

Transcript from Video:

Meredith has an invite from Jim. Barbecue at Jim's tonight. Wonder where my invitation is. God, guest list. Angela, Stanley, Oscar, Phyllis, Kevin, Creed. Must be... no.

Sara: There's a little sneak peek of what the episode includes, and I feel like you do feel a little bit sad for Michael because, obviously, he wants to be invited. He has this kind of persona throughout the entire series of just wanting to be good friends with the employees, with the staff of Dunder Mifflin. And I feel like there must be managers and leaders out there that can relate to that in terms of wanting to not only be a manager and leader but want to connect with people in a meaningful way and build friendships. But it's not always so easy. I think the problem with Michael Scott is he definitely blurs the balance. Well, he doesn't even blur it. He just completely oversteps and, you know, breaks down any sort of boundary that people might have because Jim obviously didn't invite Michael, and then suddenly Michael turns up at his doorstep, and it becomes really, really awkward. So, Andreea, take it away. Your first impressions. I mean, I know you know the show, and you've watched this episode before, but I guess what was going through your mind?

Andreea: I don't know. So, firstly, I absolutely hated Michael at the beginning, in the first kind of, like, four or five episodes in Season One. But then I started to see how he behaves, like, what is his mission, what he wants to do with Dunder Mifflin, and, like, what his leadership style is. And I feel like he just, like, he doesn't know better. And I feel like he's a big baby in a suit, and he wants to connect with people, and he wants to be part of, like—like, he deeply cares about everyone that is working at the branch in Scranton.

And he definitely has good intentions, but he doesn't really know how to, how to, like—how to, how to be, how to lead, and how to keep that distance between, you know, like, we are in the office space, but we—and we don't necessarily want to have, like, an outside-of-work relationship, but he's trying to push that away.

And I feel like this is the reason—because his branch is very small, and it kind of feels like a family, and he's always pushing this family agenda, which nowadays we all know that that is a massive red flag. Like, your co-workers aren’t your family, and we shouldn't be thinking about them like that because that kind of imposes this parentalism, if I can call it like this, at work, which is a whole different, different thing that we can, we can talk about another time.

I think he's just having good intentions, but the fact that he's so sneaky about it and, like, monitoring the emails that the employees are having—like, just, just, just, just red flag after red flag after red flag. But always good intentions in the Michael Scott way. I don't know, what, what do you think? Like, how would you feel if you, if you, if you know that your manager is monitoring your communications with the rest of the, the team members?

Like, I, I feel like Jim really handled him graciously, and how—I don't—we haven't seen this in the, the snippet that you showed, but he's basically organising this barbecue so that his roommate—not, not roommate, flatmate—is able to, like, meet with Dwight because he thinks that Dwight is not real. Because Dwight and Scott have such a problematic relationship. Like, Dwight is, like, really, like, trying to, like, impress Michael at any point he can, with anything that he can.

Jim had to lie to Dwight and say that it's a surprise, and that's the reason why Michael doesn't know, because otherwise Dwight would have gone and told Michael, like, "Hey, we are having this barbecue, and you're not invited." And that shouldn't be a problem. Like, a leader should not expect to be invited to, like, people, like, team members getting together. Like, it's absolutely normal. But yeah, I don't know. Michael Scott is a completely different animal.

Sara: But I feel like this episode feels so relatable because, in previous workplaces—and I've even heard from friends and other people—when they've been in workplaces, you know, their manager and leader can almost be part of cliques. So, in some respect, you know, Michael and Dwight are a clique where Michael fishes for information from Dwight about what's going on amongst the employees.

That often happens in workplaces. You get workplaces where the manager or leader is overly friendly and, you know, maybe is blurring the boundary of, like, "I'm looking to you as a leader, right? I need you to guide and advise. I don't need you to be my best friend. I need you to tell me what the roles and responsibilities are in this workplace."

It doesn't mean that leaders and managers can't be friendly or even friends, but I think there still need to be clear boundaries set in place for those kinds of roles. But also, um, you know, in workplaces where leaders and managers feel entitled to know about everything that's happening amongst their employees—"Why is there this conversation happening?" or "What's going on here?"

And, you know, the whole idea of, you know, the surveillance of people's emails is a complete breakdown of trust. You know, it's a complete violation of people's privacy. As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's happened in previous places that I've worked at, and I would hate to do that to any of my employees or to anyone that I work with—to monitor what they're doing. You know, and I would always trust people with their actions.

But I think it comes down to that point of, if you're feeling like you want to start to spy or have some surveillance on what people are doing, I think that shows something—that something is fundamentally broken or not, not right within the organisation.

Andreea: That is definitely, like, a sign of, like, a toxic workplace that is disguised as, like, "We are a family. We are all friendly with each other," and that should not happen. And the fact that—I don't want to believe this, but I've heard that there are companies out there that are monitoring employees' communications, and that just shows that there's, as you said, there's a massive distrust between, like, leadership and teams.

And if you don't have that foundation of trust, you come to business, and you have to spend time fostering the trust between everyone, and not through, like, such hard, hard policies and, and very, like, cliquey environments. It's not about that. It's about, like, clear communication, transparency, keeping people in the loop with the decision-making, and just, like, having everyone aligned with what the company goals are, essentially, and just letting them, you know, have autonomy to make decisions that are best for them.

And yeah, don't, don't interfere to such a, such a big degree. But I, yeah, Michael Scott does not understand that. And I—if, yeah, if I organised—imagine if I organised a party and my manager or someone from the senior leadership would show up at my door. I think—I don't know what I would do, honestly. But yeah, everyone else, like, has handled this situation and is handling Michael really nicely.

But I would also say that this kind of behaviour, like, so, like, so intense that Michael is behaving, is, is, is showing—it's quite common in small businesses or family businesses where, you know, oftentimes, like, employees are there, like, because someone knew someone. They're, they're, they're familiar with the, with the family, or they're members of the family.

So, that is where the situations may happen, and that's where you need to be very careful. Like, you are leaving the family, the family relationships outside of work when you're entering work. Because all of you are there to do one thing, and that is to grow the business or whatever the business goals are in your particular case.

But I know that one of these things, for, for example—my mum has her own business, and she oftentimes struggles with this. Am I the leader? Am I the boss? Am I the friend? What am I? Because she has a small team under her, so she kind of feels like she needs to be more than, than just the boss. And just so you know, it's okay to just be the boss. You don't have to get involved in people's, people's lives as much as you think you would because you want to do good and you want to, like, sustain them. You can do that in, in other, other more sustainable ways.

Sara: I love that, and I think I resonate with that because, obviously, I run Fresh and Fearless, and that's the kind of micro business. And I work with lots of freelancers and, you know, love working with freelancers. And I think there's a beauty in it because there's, like, that, that boundary in terms of they're doing their own thing. And I know that they have all these other clients that they're probably working with.

So, you know, it, it means I don't have to, I guess, be so hands-on. I can just be like, "Hey, here's what I need help with. Is that something you can assist with? Yes or no?" And they do, and it feels more empowered in terms of—rather than, you know, "Oh, this is what you should be doing, and that's it."

And I've built such good relationships and, and such a lovely community. And even through the People Geeks community channel as well, like, it's been so lovely. And so, for any people listening in, or HR professionals, like, the Culture Amp People Geeks community is such a great resource for connecting with like-minded people and just making friends who probably feel similar things to you and have challenges that are very familiar. So, it's great to not feel alone, and that's a great place to feel connected with the community.

So yeah, it's been nice to build that community. But obviously, you know, one day, I hope that I will build Fresh and Fearless to be a business where we do have full-time employees. And I think, for me, I will have to have some huge learning curve in terms of, you know, being really clear and boundaried around, "Who am I in the organisation, and what do I do?"

You know, not everyone will want to be pally and friendly, and they just want to come in, get their job done, and leave. And that is absolutely okay, because if that's how they like to work and feel empowered to do their best work, then that's what they should feel they can do.

It's when you start to enforce that, "Oh, you have to come on these events," or, "You know, you've got to come to happy hour," or, "You know, we've got to have lunch together." Like, all of those things. Because you've got introverts, you've got people that have, you know, sensory sensitivity, you've got all different types of people in a business.

And ultimately, we come to work, and we want to do the things that fulfil us, and it's best if we can do that in the way that suits us. Not because, "Oh, the leader wants to, you know, facilitate an organisation that is a family," like you say, as a bit of a red flag. But I think there's so many organisations that maybe fall into that trap of, "I want to be best friends or be a family," which is maybe not always the right approach.

Andreea: Yeah, you have to think of why. Why do they want to do this? Like, what, what exactly are they trying to achieve by thinking this is the right way of, you know, calling themselves a family, being super involved in the people's lives? And you know, if the leader says this, everyone has to do that without, you know, like, promoting all sorts of, like, events and activities to increase the culture but not really catering to the people that come from different backgrounds or, like, have different, you know, preferences in terms of, like, the amount of commitment that they want to have outside of working hours.

Because being, you know, going to events and lunches and drinks outside of work—it is a commitment of your personal time. And potentially, you don't want to do that. But yeah, why? Why do leaders and, you know, business owners or, you know, people that find themselves in the similar position with Michael in this clip do this? Because I've been trying to ask myself that. Like, what in the history made them think that this is the right approach? And yeah, I've been, I've been quite thinking about this for a long time just to understand, like, why do they keep pushing this agenda?

Is it because they don't feel like they might—they might feel like they are not a great leader, and they feel a bit, like, feel a bit vulnerable in—in especially for people that are, you know, new managers and then don't have the support and the tools and resources that they need to succeed in the role of being a new manager? Do they feel like, by setting a specific power over everyone, it will make—like, will solidify their place as a leader? And that also means kind of, like, going, like, just not respecting the boundaries that some people have and ignoring them.

Because I, I don't know. I don't know. I think, yeah, I don't know. I think it's just something to explore there and people to ask themselves, like, "Why am I doing this for? Is it something to do with me internally? Is it something to do with the fact that I'm not really prepared for this, for this position? Or is it something that I've learned from, like, sitcoms and, and, um, like, such, like The Office?"

Because The Office is, like, how—it's an icon. It's, like, I was watching The Office when I was a kid, and I thought, "Oh my goodness, this is what a great culture and great company is." And Dunder Mifflin, what Michael does, is, is great, but it's also not. Like, you know, you have the side of both coins.

But yeah, what is it exactly? Then how can we break those standards and, like, ideals down into what people actually want from, from a leader today? Yeah, there's a, there's actually a great podcast that I've been listening to: The Modern People Leader. And you can find it on Spotify, and they are talking—they're inviting a lot of, like, people leaders to discuss different areas that they are, you know, having challenges with, like AI or, like, remote work or hybrid or any other, like, HR policies.

And what a modern people leader looks like nowadays, and what they—what is the agenda that they should be pushing? And it's really interesting, and I really recommend it for anyone that is in the position of being a manager or leader for the first time, or they've been in this position for many years, but they feel like they are stagnating. Give it a listen. It's, it's really great.

Sara: Thank you, thank you for the recommendation. I'll definitely check it out, and I feel like what you were talking about in terms of, like, the modern day, and I'm trying to consider, like, obviously this episode is set when it came out, and we've been through so much since that episode came out in terms of in the, in our professional careers and in the workplaces and the way that we work now.

You know, there are companies that are transitioning back into full-time in the office every day, or at least three, four days a week, when they had very flexible remote working, working-from-home policies that they've kind of scrapped now. You've got some companies that are hybrid, so they say, you know, you can pick and choose your days, but you need to be in however many days, and then you've got some that have stuck to the way that they've worked, which is completely remote—you can work from home, you can work from anywhere—which really works and is great for some people.

And I've seen a lot of organisations struggling with figuring out what, how to, how to transition from any of those phases, because we've been in one phase for so long. And I think people are definitely struggling with going back into the office. You know, people have changed their lives. You know, people have moved. If we're thinking about London, for example, people aren't living in proximity to Tube lines as they were maybe before, because they're like, well, you know, we've spent the last year working remotely. I can do the same work, if not more work, working from home because I obviously don't have to commute and tire myself out with the trains and the travelling.

But then they're having to do this even longer commute into the office now. And I think about places in, you know, the United States, and you have to drive everywhere in some of these states as well, and some of those commutes can be two and a half hours just to get to the office because of traffic, like in LA, and there's so many different places that maybe don't have great train connections, you know, if you're thinking across Europe or any other country. So, it's not as easy to get into the office, and people have adapted their lives.

I think there's something to be said about boundaries there, because some leaders, from my outward perspective, have been, you know, I think maybe from their privileged perspective, we can just transition, we can be back in the office, because they don't have to worry about maybe childcare, you know, that's more paid for. They don't have to worry about making lunch the night before because they can probably just afford to buy lunch out. Whereas not everybody has that flexibility, you know, they might not be able to afford childcare five days a week, they might not be able to afford—they might have to build their lunch at home and then pack it and bring it. And you know, there's so many other added pressures and things to think about.

So this point around boundaries, I do think there needs to be this balance, and maybe not everyone will agree with me, where leaders really understand the perspective and the livelihood of people that they, that work within the organisation, that some of the things that you change physically or even virtually about the workplace isn't always accessible. And you need to really consider that, because if you don't, people leave, because the, you know, the flexibility is gone, the accessibility is gone, and as a result, you start to lose quite a diverse workforce. And then you end up having the same types of privileged people working for your business. And it's such a, it's such a shame that we're potentially falling back into old habits and traps, and not really considering everyone in the workplace.

Andreea: Yeah, no, yes, plus 20 to what you said. I do, I do agree with you. And it just feels like the way things are moving nowadays post-pandemic, people don't have trust in their teams at all. Because obviously there's some, there's been, you know, moments when we were working fully flexibly and fully remotely that people did not do their jobs correctly. And that is fine. But that is not—the scapegoat here isn't flexible working. It's the processes that you have in place as a company.

The fact that—so nuanced, like—is the fact that do the leaders have the resources that they need to manage their people correctly? Are we allocating the budgets correctly? Are we taking into consideration what are our, like, what the engagement surveys are saying and the feedback that we are receiving from the people? Do we understand that, as you said, not everyone affords to live in massive hubs like London, Manchester, you know, Leeds, like where the tech jobs are or like most jobs are? Do we understand that there's a cost-of-living crisis happening, and the affordability is becoming smaller and smaller? Like, I don't think people, and specifically certain business leaders, are asking themselves these questions. And it's, it's really sad to see.

But I think we should stop blaming remote work and flexible work for the inefficiencies of a business and start addressing, like, what exactly are we doing in the business? Like, do we know who are we representing? Do we know what we are doing? Are we all aligned with the same goals? If not, we have to do the work. And obviously it's easier for smaller companies or up-and-coming companies to implement the flexible working principle—remote work, hybrid—and offer more, like, autonomy because they're new and because they haven't had the history behind that these massive giant companies had.

And it's, yeah, it's really hard to transition a big company from, like, how they've been operating for the last, god knows, even, like, 80 years, like fully, like, hands-on in the office, to flexible or hybrid or more autonomy. But if you can't do that, then find ways to support your staff in other ways, like good perks, good benefits, things that make sense to your, to your workforce, and supporting them in their life decisions. Because we're more than just, you know, workers. We are more than just our jobs. We are fully formed individuals that have a life outside of work that sometimes bleeds into work. Like, it's not like you're two different people. You are an individual that does multiple things, and they all correlate with each other.

And people need to think more of that, like, not just, yeah, I am my work, I am my job, I am my role, I'm a leader, I'm an individual contributor, I am a junior, whatever. And that's a lie. People are more than that. And, yeah, people need to respect the boundaries of everyone and respect how they want to work and the, you know, the, the ways that make them be successful in their roles or whatever their goals are without, you know, like, being super, like, imposing on policies and hard, "Money, it's back to work," like, that doesn't work. And I don't think people like being in that position to, you know, be—I don't know how people feel about this, people might not like this term—but be like a, you know, in a dictatorship, really. Because it is the truth. I, I see it that way. But, yeah.

Sara: Beautifully put. I think that's the challenge, isn't it? I think sometimes we can be so siloed in our thinking around what a conducive, efficient, productive workplace looks like. But there are so many ways that a business can be productive and effective and create great outcomes. There is not one way to run a business.

And I think that's the challenge. We see one company maybe succeeding, and we might see what's happening on the surface. We might see that, you know, they have this hybrid working model—they've got people in the office three days a week. But we might not see the intricacies of what's happening internally, of like, actually, we do this on a case-by-case basis because not everybody can do the hybrid. Some people need to work remotely. Some people need to work flexibly. Some people need to work late in the evenings. And actually, I think that balance needs to be addressed and those boundaries need to be looked at. Because, as you say, it's not like you switch off from your life and you turn up at work, and then that's it, you're in your work mode, and your work mask is on, and then you can, like, switch it off and go back to your normal life afterwards.

Everything bleeds into each other. If you have a really awful day with your manager, you will go home and feel really crap the rest of the evening, probably, because you've had a really horrible conversation with them. You know, it's absolutely human to have that experience. And the same as, you know, if you have an awful moment with a family member, or there's someone sick, or you're taking care of the kids, or whatever it may be, you don't then go into work and then completely shut off all of that that has happened. It all bleeds into, and it's being able to create that space that people can, you know, have almost that breathing space and understand what's going on, and then be able to do what they need to do to be able to be, like, to contribute to a conducive working environment.

Sara: …and when you were talking, it made me think of—obviously I’m going to bring it back to a TV show because I love watching TV. I don’t know if that says good or bad things about me, but there’s a show called Severance, and it’s on Apple TV, and it’s a great show. Because basically, there is a switch you can put on in your brain where, when you walk into the office, you forget everything that happens in your personal life, and you’re just there in work. But then the flip is true. As soon as you leave the workplace, your brain switches off what’s happened at work, and then you’re back into your personal life. So, your personal life and your work life have no understanding of each other.

But you can just see this confusion and miscommunication and lack of understanding of what’s actually going on in both worlds, and not really understanding. And so, you know, people are—in an ideal world, you would be able to cut it off, but actually, that seems like a really horrible place to be. Because you spend the majority of your life at work. I want it to be somewhere where I enjoy it, it brings me joy, it brings me fulfilment, it gives me a sense of purpose. And even everything you said at the beginning of the podcast—you know, you want your leaders to share information with you, so it feels like it’s a collective journey. You know, there’s shared ambitions, shared goals, there’s transparency with where the business is going, so you feel like you’re there with them. Because otherwise…

Andreea: It’s like the IKEA effect, where you have the, you know, the pieces of the furniture that you’re building, but you’re building it yourself with someone, and you create, like—you know that it makes you appreciate the object a lot more. And also, if you’re building with friends or family or partners or whatever, it kind of brings, like, a sense of trust and, like, connection. And that’s exactly what we should be—not necessarily, like, exactly that, but, like, people should—everyone should have a say in how business works.

And everyone, as leaders, want their boundaries to be respected by everyone else. So does everyone else want their boundaries to be respected. So, it’s not like a give-give-give or take-take-take. It’s give and take, give and take. It’s a dance. It’s a choreography, something that everyone is part of. Because a business is not just their leaders. It’s everyone else that is putting the hard work. Everyone else that has to travel hours. Everyone else that has to, like, you know, have someone to take care of their children. Everyone that is not able to, you know, travel all the way to work, but they’re doing so because they have to. Like, it’s everyone. Like, the success of a business is because of everyone and not just the faces or the leaders. Like, yes, their leadership style dictates the success as well, but it’s how they empower the teams to follow them.

So, if you are feeling like you have to resort to not respecting boundaries, doing what Michael is doing, like monitoring your team, looking at the, like, the private conversations that they’re having, showing up uninvited, or, like, trying to bond with them from, like, a very superior position, that’s not gonna work. And nobody wants that. Like, be transparent, be honest, understand your own vulnerabilities but also the team’s vulnerabilities. Work together, and just always listen and communicate. Like, it’s like any other relationship that you have in your life, like—even if it’s just work.

Sara: Love that. Absolutely love it. We are coming to the end of the episode, which I’m like—I hate it when it happens. Why? Why does this happen so quickly? But is there anything else you want to mention or advise or share with our listeners about workplace boundaries, or even something about the episode specifically, that we haven’t touched on?

Andreea: Boundaries are everything in a, in a, in a, you know, relationship, whether it’s, like, personal or professional. And take time understanding, uh, everyone else’s points of view, understanding where they come from. And, um, don’t assume that just because you can do it, everyone else can. Just, just be empathetic as much as you can with everyone. And, and it’s okay to be vulnerable. It’s okay to make mistakes. You just have to, you know, keep learning and being a good person and do your part in the world. And that is by respecting other people’s boundaries and asking them what do they need, how they like to be communicated with, how they like to be supported. Like, all those things that make you a great leader—not exercising what Michael Scott is doing in this particular scene, monitoring them and not trusting them. Like, when you trust people, beautiful things can, can happen. And everyone knows that because they are trusting people in their personal lives. And why wouldn’t they trust people in their professional lives too? Like, it’s literally virtually the same but in different contexts.

Sara: 100%. But, like, if you go into a workplace as a leader and you immediately don’t trust people for no reason at all, I personally believe that is a projection. That’s something in within you as an individual that you need to work on. It’s not something that actually the other people around you need to work on, but actually asking yourself, why do I feel entitled to this information? Or why do I feel like I need to know every single thing about what everyone is doing or how someone is doing a piece of work? You know, as long as you’re getting the, the output and the outcome that you want, maybe even sometimes with that trust, it’s even better than you expected. Because if you’ve got a manager breathing down your neck and is looking over your shoulder at everything you’re doing, that micro-management style never leads to great outcomes for a business. And so respecting boundaries is where, as you say, beautiful, beautiful work and beautiful outcomes can happen.

Andreea: Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, nowadays, I feel like everyone is so pressured, especially managers, to deliver and deliver as much as they can, and they don't have the resources that they need to do so. So, it's really important to also acknowledge their position and their needs because, yeah, an employee's journey and satisfaction is, you know, 60 percent the job of—sorry—is influenced by the, the manager that they have. And we have to make sure that they are empowered to, to lead their teams correctly.

And yeah, unfortunately, it's really hard at the moment for everyone because it's such a, such a strange market, such strange time, and nobody understands what's going on, and it's a chaos and things change. But yeah, we, again, we have to listen, be empathic, and understand each other, and ask what everyone else needs from us to be able to do their best work or be their best selves.

Sara: Absolutely. I love the final point that you said about we need to ask people because a lot of the times, we may not even know what people's boundaries are because we don't actually, we don't actually inquire. You know, what, what do you like, what do, what do you prefer in the workplace in terms of how I communicate with you?

Maybe someone doesn't like seven thousand messages on instant messenger. They are like a bullet-point list of everything in an email. But somebody else might like, you know, instant message and not email. Someone else might like voice notes or video calls or, you know, voice calls. And so, not everyone is the same. And some people might not mind being contacted out of hours because, you know, maybe they, they don't mind that so much. They can switch off and it's easy for them.

But for some others, it might be really hard for them to switch off, and so they're really boundaried with their time. So, as managers, I think it's, as you say, not assuming but also maybe asking questions and having that open conversation. And as a leader, being vulnerable and saying, this is what I struggle with, and here are some of my boundaries. Because that may be a way to invite other people to share those too.

Because yeah, stating your boundaries is really hard sometimes because you worry about people's reactions and how they respond to it. Because you always worry, like, if I state my boundary, people might take it personally, that I don't like them. Or, you know, there's different emotional reactions to it.

Andreea: But yeah, that's also your responsibility, like with yourself, to know what your boundaries are and communicate them. Because you can't assume. You can't assume, like, if, again, if something works for you or someone else or a company, that doesn't mean that it would work in your position.

Yeah, just be clear and communicate. It's fine. It's okay. But it's your, your job to yourself, like your commitment to yourself as well. So, you're helping yourself by letting them, letting others know what are your, what do you need from them.

Sara: Yeah. Oh, if I had, in my previous roles, if I was working in an organisation that you worked in, I think I would have had such a different experience. I feel like your approach and mindset is so wonderful that I feel like it's lacking in a lot of organisations. And I feel like, yeah, your skill set is very much, much needed in a lot of places.

Andreea: Thank you. But I am, I'm learning from everyone. Like, I, I've been through very toxic workplaces before, and I've, I've learned that they, it's not okay to do certain things. And it's an ongoing journey, isn't it?

But it's also like, you know, just trust yourself as a person because you can do things that you think that you can't. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Sara: Of course, of course. Before we, before I let you go, um, there is a question we're asking all our guests, which is, obviously in the show, Michael Scott has bought himself a World's Best Boss mug. And so, what would your version of World's Best Boss mug say? What would, what mug would you buy yourself?

Andreea: World's Best Number One Fan. Like, people's number one fan. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I basically, I, I see potential, even if people don't see that potential in themselves. And I really enjoy helping others see who they truly are and, like, just, just acknowledge that they can, they can do the things that, as I said, that they can do the things that the, that they don't think that they can.

Um, and believing in themselves. So, I'll be your number one fan. If you want me to be, I will be your number one fan. And I really like to support people that way. Because a lot of us are just, you know, like, questioning ourselves constantly. So, stop the questioning. Just do and know that I believe in you. That, right?

Sara: For anyone who listens, listeners that are renowned for self-sabotaging, I think maybe get in touch with Andreea to be your number one fan. Don’t, so you have to follow through with your goals and ambitions because Andreea is going to be there, like, cheering you on. Like, "I can do that."

Andreea: I’ll be there, whenever you need me.

Sara: Oh, this has been such a wonderful, great chat, as always. I just love catching up with you, to be honest. And that's what it's felt like for this episode. And I'm sure our listeners have obviously enjoyed this as well and would probably want to know how to get in touch with you or find out more about what you do. So, yeah, where, where can people find you?

Andreea: I’m on LinkedIn. I've been trying to be more active on LinkedIn. At the moment, I'm taking a break because I just feel like the, the social media fatigue. Or because it's summer, I don't know. I just, and it's a weird time with a lot going on outside and the whole context in the world. And I feel like whatever I'm saying is not really important right now. Like, we have other things to, to put our energies into.

But you can find me on LinkedIn, and I would love to connect with everyone. And I'm always up to, like, sharing stories and, like, as I, being your number one fan, if you want me to, and talking about games and meeting up in London if anyone is in, in London. So, yeah, I, I'm always open to your connections. And that's how I met you, Sara, and I'm really grateful for it because you are such a great friend and such a, such a good person in my life. So, thank you. It became very true.

Sara: I know. My cheeks are hurting. I'm just, like, really, yeah, smiling. Like, honestly, I'm so grateful to have met you. And I feel like, yeah, if any of our listeners want to build, like, a really lovely community of friends in London, then definitely get in touch with Andreea. And obviously, if you need a Dungeon and Dragons master, then Andreea is the person to reach out to. So, put professional aside if you want to have some fun, then this is the first time we get to know.

Andreea: We need to do our game. We need to do our game.

Sara: We do. We will schedule that in. But thanks again for joining and being part of this episode. And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed it, and we will certainly see you in the next episode. Take care, everyone!