S2 EP04 - Hot Girl

Sara: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Out of the Office and I am delighted to be joined by Dimitra. Dimitra, come and say hello, introduce yourself and tell us all about what you do.

Dimitra: Hi, I'm so excited to be here Sarah, thank you so much for the invite. I'm very excited for our conversation. For everyone who is joining as well, my name is Dimitra as mentioned and I'm currently working as a consultant for doing work around different organisations when it comes to HR matters or marketing matters. Originally from Greece, went to Canada for many years, now I split my time between both countries that I get to call home thankfully. I love to work with individuals from all over the world and help out however I can.

Sara: I was like, this is the type of person I want on the show. It's really hard to find people that love the show and also do this work as well. I'm sure there's loads and hopefully I discover a lot more through this podcast. Whenever I spot people, I'm like, yes, more friends I can talk about the office with.

Dimitra: It's the best of both worlds and I think it's so funny because people that love the office that are in HR, it seems a little bit of an odd thing. You know that what Michael Scott is doing is so wrong and you know that you would be writing up violations all day every day but you can't help but laugh. It's so interesting. I love what you're doing with this podcast. It's such a cool concept and again, so happy to be here.

Sara: I'm happy to have you here and I think we're going to be talking about quite a... I'm really excited to talk about this topic because I feel like a lot of people relate to it either personally or professionally. I think there's so many layers to this subject matter, which I think will resonate and connect with a lot of people. So for context, we're looking at... We're back at the first season of The Office and it's episode six and the title of this episode is actually called Hot Girl. So I think that kind of tells you what we'll probably expect in the episode itself, but we're going to watch a short clip and then chat back and forth about what we think about what's happened. 

Yeah, I mean, that particular scene, I think just goes to show what can happen in the workplace or even just in general, you know, situations with colleagues or friends or people that we know where someone is almost like taken aback by someone who is clearly quite beautiful. And then they let like typical rules just like fall by the wayside because they're like, oh, you're pretty. I'll let it go. Like you can do your thing. Yeah, I just wonder what your reflections are from that particular clip from that episode. 

Dimitra: Sure. Yeah.

I mean, at first, it's again, I think anyone that hasn't seen the show for sure, it's very off putting, right? Like especially if you do have more of a lens of someone that is in human resources or even from a psychology background, I can understand matters such as objectification, right? And how that can impact those around you. It's seen as shocking, right? And you kind of see it and you're cringing and go, oh, my gosh. People that have watched the show, unfortunately, have a better understanding that that's who he is. He's inappropriate. If you'll, you know, say whatever is on his mind without really being mindful of the consequences or even what he's saying.

But I think, yeah, we see it immediately, right? It's the whole again, judging the book by its cover, as you say, which you're not supposed to do and yet subconsciously. Right. I think everyone to a certain point does that. You know, initially, you know, you see him telling Pam like dismissing her and he's even the way he treats her. Right. That he's very much like, OK, you're wasting my time. I can't talk about this. And then he looks up, sees Katie, right. The other actress and all of a sudden it's like, yeah, I think I can do it. But just just so many of the comments he makes, like, I mean, he's like, break it up, ladies. Right. Just the things are like, you know, cocks in the house or whatever he said. And you know, but when Dwight says it, then I was like, no one cares. So it's interesting to see how he how Michael, like, not only objectifies Katie, but then he tries to make himself as seen as like the leader and like the person in charge and the person that's important. And even the person in power. Right. Because he says, like, I'll give you the conference room all day. And then as well, there's a meeting. He's like, no, like, you know, he's like decisiveness, right, to kind of show that he's authoritative and he has power and he makes decisions. And then whatever she wants, basically he'll he'll give to her. And it's clearly because of her looks. Yeah. Very shocking at first. A little bit quite funny if you've seen it because it's cringy because, you know, that's what he's like. But that's kind of the initial reaction I have when I see that scene.

Sara: Yeah, it is so cringy. And also you're cringing because, well, one, the way that he's approaching it, he feels like he's almost almost overconfident with what he's saying. He feels like he's really winning with her. And he's like, right, I've gone in here. You know, she's going to respect me. She's going to love me. She's going to think I'm the best person in the office. And you can just see like those small like this is why I think the people that act in this show are so good, because it's not always like these really grand gestures. It's those small moments of someone's face just like changing slightly. And you just know that someone is incredibly uncomfortable. And yeah, it's it's really interesting in that particular scene where you see have like almost like the physical discomfort from, you know, these men just coming over and saying, oh, you know, we don't normally let this happen, but, you know, let's go and you can sell your handbags here. It's fine. 

Dimitra: Exactly.

When I think it's also to your point as well about body language, right? Like you can see Pam is kind of used to kind of curling up a bit. That's that's also her character, especially earlier on in the seasons. But we see it in this episode as well when Michael is like, you know, shewing her away. And then with Katie, you can tell that she's also uncomfortable, even though maybe it's not as obvious. But like you said, it's like those micro gestures that give that off. And if you're not good at, you know, reading body language, which clearly Michael is not or Dwight, quite frankly, because he's also there. They're not going to catch on that. They're not going to get it. They're just going to keep saying, oh, yeah, like I'm like I said, I'm winning.

Sara: I think I want to I want to pick your brain a little bit, because obviously I feel like you've lived in so many different places, you know, obviously Canada and Greece and obviously working with different European countries and individuals.

And I feel like before we start the podcast, you were talking a little bit about the differences in terms of, you know, beauty ideals, because obviously in this particular clip, you know, Amy Adams, the actress, like she is very beautiful. Like, don't get me wrong. She is. She's very easy to look at. She's very beautiful, stunning. But in terms of what we see as stunning and beautiful can change depending on where you are. And different cultural standards, beauty ideals, you know, and different things of that nature. And maybe, you know, in some situations, she might not actually get through to the boardroom and be able to sell out. So she might not be seen as conventionally attractive to some cultures.

But here, obviously in America, she is. And so I wonder, like, in terms of, you know, your experience in different countries, like, have you seen beauty ideals change and how attractiveness is maybe it differs across borders?

Dimitra: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great question. It's definitely something that is so glaringly obvious that sometimes I cringe to like my everyday because I notice things that and again, like, to everybody, you know, discrimination can mean different things. And I think that, you know, for me, I do pride myself as being someone that does champion diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. And if I do a speech, I'll do my best to make sure that that's what I'm talking about or a podcast or whatever the case may be. And I've come to realise, too, that when we talk about discrimination, I think in Canada or the States, because they are quite similar in a lot of ways, discrimination is more based a lot of times on race and if people are newcomers to the country. Right. So obviously myself, I was born in Athens, Greece, moved to Canada. I faced my own type of racism because I wasn't born in Canada, wasn't fully Canadian. I'm half. So it was kind of when people knew that, you know, I was my second language, people knew I wasn't born there. So I've had to deal with that. And what's interesting is that coming here, I see a different kind of discrimination where it's not necessarily based on race because as a country, Greece is not as diverse.

I think it's fair to say that Canada and the United States are extremely multicultural and very diverse. And, you know, it's wonderful because you are so exposed to so many different religions and people from different countries and languages and cultures. Like it's very fascinating. And here we're predominantly, you know, the majority of the individuals living here are Greek and tend to have a certain, say, a similar look and feel, if you will. Discrimination tends to a lot of times be against things like appearance, like when it comes to or even age. Right. So there is definitely ageism and that's very predominant when it comes to the workforce here. I hear even from other individuals, I know that maybe they want to change jobs in their 50s and they say there's no way I can leave because no one's going to hire me. I'm over 50. 

Whereas you won't necessarily see that as much in North America, because I think that's where you would say, like, OK, we really value your experience, especially for a more potentially senior type of role where you, you know, you would value that someone has, let's say 20, 30 years of experience. But here, for some reason, it doesn't seem to be always the case. At least, you know, these are obviously my opinion and my experience speaking to people. And then also on the subject of appearance, where there is definitely a stereotypical beauty standard where a female has to be, you know, a certain weight and quite small and has to have a certain appearance about her.  And it does certainly can vary from industry to industry, but especially in the service industry, it's very obvious that the individuals being hired for the roles have to look a certain way. And what we would, I think, stereotypically say is a beautiful person, right, has a certain height, even for men, right? Is it a taller, is it a taller man? Like that's immediately seen as more attractive.

If the woman, you know, does she have long flowing hair, is she a certain size, is she more petite? But, you know, what does she wear and how does she dress herself? And things like that are very much, I think, more so focused here because I think also it's the thing to focus on or the thing that will differentiate people more so than that, say, like race or religion, where you would see that typically in North America. So that's definitely been very interesting to witness or even trying to guide organisations I work with here to understand that you have to open up the floor to everyone, right? And sure, there's circumstances, of course,

I've had to learn, right, that you have to be very specific in what you look for. And I can respect that, right? It's a business is a business, they have their targets, sure. But at the same time, it's it goes back to fundamentally like giving people the opportunity. And that even goes before individuals that are maybe have some, you know, lack of certain ability or they maybe require certain assistance in the interview process and being able to provide that. Which parentheses, I do feel we're lacking that in North America as well to provide equal opportunities, you know, for all individuals, even our diverse individuals and so on and so forth. So I think that's lacking globally. But it's been very interesting to see the differences here and then even other European countries where, again, the discrimination is not so much on the race as we would maybe more so think in North America, but it's more so on the appearance and the age as well. And even the gender, right, like certain more, which again, it's a global phenomenon, right? But we know that organisations that do have more than 30 percent representation are 39 percent more likely to outperform their competitors. And that's starting to catch on. Right. So there's hope.

But we're still quite a bit away away from that. So it's interesting to watch it unfold.

Sara: Oh, wosh, I'm like, there's so much there, you said. I'm like, there's so many like golden golden bits I want to pick up on. I think the first one around ageism is so interesting because, you know, inherently, when we think about beauty standards and beauty ideals, they're based on one type of person. Right. And like when we think about ageism and how, you know, we have to avoid ageing as much as possible. We have to look as youthful as possible. Right. You know, when it comes to men and they age and they start to grow a few grey hairs and they start to look a bit older, no one sees them for the most part as like, you know, less than. They're like, oh, you know, they're ageing like fine wine or, you know, they're a silver fox. 

But when you look at women and they start to age and they start to have grey hair and they're not dying it, whatever it is, and getting rid of any kind of signs that they might be a bit older than, I don't know, 50, 60 plus, you know, it's like, oh, they've let themselves go. Look how much they've aged like they look bad for their age. And there's so much more criticism and, you know, heat on women to look as youthful as possible for as long as possible where men don't have it to the same degree. And it was really interesting saying about like the difference between North America and Europe in terms of age. And it just makes me think about like the president of the states like he is quite old, which there's, you know, I'm not trying to be ageist, but in terms of the I guess the age average of, you know, the politicians in the US, it's probably around the 60 year old mark. 

Whereas maybe in other countries in Europe, maybe the average age would be a lot lower. And it's just really fascinating to see those differences in terms of the perception of age and ability to do a role. Whereas maybe in North America, people would see older people as like, you're wiser, you're able to do a full-filler role. Whereas maybe in Europe, people are like, oh, well, you're getting on a bit. You should probably retire soon. And maybe we make space for younger people. I don't know if that's true, but, you know, it's just interesting to see that that kind of ageist lens on it, particularly with gender.

And then you were talking about, you know, those beauty ideals and the differences in terms of maybe skin colour playing a part for North America. And then in Europe, it's about those specific maybe features that someone might have. And it made me think about, you know, bringing in the lens of Asia and things like that. Like I'm my heritage is Indian and my family members kind of lived and were born in Malaysia. So we have Indian heritage, but we don't have that much connection to it. But still, there's such rife colorism in India where the lighter your skin, the more favourable you are seen. And I think both in India, but also in Southeast Asian countries like, you know, Korea and China and places like that.

The skin bleaching cream industry is extraordinary in terms of the wealth that they generate. Like there is such huge income that those companies receive from people just using bleaching cream. I remember when I was a child that we had Fair and Lovely, which is a very popular brand in India that some people may or may have heard of. And on the back, I don't know if you've seen that, you know, when you get toothpaste and you have like really yellow teeth and then it goes to white and then you like measure against your teeth and you're like, OK, where am I on this scale today? They had that for skin colour on the back of these fair and lovely creams. Yeah. 

Dimitra: Oh, my gosh. So literally, wow, I did not. That's the first time I'm hearing of this. Wow.

Sara: Yeah. And my grandma had this fair and lovely cream in the house and I would use this as a child. And I remember being shown that like you need to lighten your skin. And it wasn't it wasn't even almost like in it pushed as like a bleaching cream. It was almost like, you know, the fairer you are, the more beautiful you are and the cleaner you are as well. There was almost like that un unhinged point around like the dark you are, the dirty you are, which is horrific. And as a child, I was just like, I'm going to give me this cream. It's fine. Whatever.

But obviously, as an adult, I was like, how toxic is it that I was raised on that? And then, you know, that colorism is rife. When we think about beauty and beauty ideals and any bias we have towards, you know, why someone may be beautiful or not, I do think if we unpack it and look a bit deeper, a lot of the times it stems from racism, it stems from colorism, it stems from, you know, we we centre euro European appearances as the ideal. And that's what we should strive for. You see, you know, plastic surgery for, you know, certain differences in your features to be tried to make it closer as possible to more Eurocentric kind of features, which is such a shame. And then you see the flip of like people that are white and have typically European European features, having plastic surgery to then almost make themselves ethnically ambiguous and just like almost like they are white and they are European, but they're trying to adopt things and like almost appropriate feature on appearance type that people that own that and have that are often bullied and seen as less than for for looking and being that way. So just as you were talking, that's what came up for me. And I just found it really, really interesting that the differences between different cultures and countries in terms of those those ideals.

Dimitra: Absolutely. And I mean, first of all, like I'm quite honestly trying to not get emotional with the story you just shared, because I found it with the cream because I just for me, like I can't even.

I can't even imagine having to deal with it. Like for me, I knew I was different when I went to Canada because obviously I spoke great. Right. So and I went in a young age. So having the language variation, having to try to make friends and trying to fit in and having to go to ESL or English and second language classes and things like that before, you know, fully submerging in the system at a young age. I know how much that impacted me. And it's still even having to deal with racist comments as an adult, even in the workplace. Some horrific things I've heard that I never would have thought I would hear because I didn't grow up in that kind of environment. So it may be it maybe it does impact that my mom was born in Canada. So she grew up in a very like my grandparents were Greek and migrated Canada, build businesses and live that dream, sort of say, which was incredible. But, you know, they raised their kids there and then they came to Greece. And maybe that's what kind of helped shape my understanding of like we're all the same and we're all equal. And that's what kind of helped me even growing up here where I didn't see that much multiculturalism, but just hearing the stories, but then going to Canada and actually understanding that you're different, right, or feeling like you're different. And even now coming back here, sometimes I still struggle with that. And it's one of those things where people here might say, like, oh, why did you move back? And like, why didn't you say Canada or just comments that people will make or even trying to navigate the workforce here and understanding or seeing some of the differences in the mentality and how things are approached. And I find that sometimes to be a little bit disheartening because sometimes here, here, I feel like I don't fit in. I'm like, what's happening? 

I can't even imagine just growing up and having those beliefs instilled in you that you have to look different and that, you know, obviously in different cultures, you mentioned as well some Asian cultures where we know skin care is huge and like SPF and like protecting the skin and using umbrellas or gloves or never let your skin darken. And then you have in other, you know, other groups of people that are trying to tan, right? And they're trying to get body modifications to, you know, usually enhance certain features of their of their body to look like someone else. And it's very interesting to see how all those dynamics kind of play out and understand the differences. It's almost like you want what you can have, which is such a psychological right? I'm going a bit deeper here, but it's one of those things where it's like, oh, I want to have this. So, you know, how can I get it or or what can I do to make it happen?

But you're right. A lot of the beauty standards are based a lot on kind of more either more Eurocentric, as you mentioned as well, right? And seeing how those tend to prevail, even when you look at things like the modelling industry. Right. I mean, first, strides have been made to help to include more individuals, individuals that have either it could be individuals that maybe have prosthetics. It could be individuals that are of a larger body. It could be individuals that don't have the stereotypical, you know, light skin, light eyes, light hair type of features and seeing those coming into the scene more and more so over the past years. But there's still such a long way to go. And we see that in the workplace. Right. Like, I feel that as soon as you see a woman that's very attractive, the other the other kind of discrimination that I've witnessed occurred as well is that people will say like, well, how does she get that job? It's because of her looks. Whereas for a man, you wouldn't say that. And yet, you know, then they I mean, they faced a discrimination, too. Right. We talked about the height thing briefly before, where it's like men. And these are lots of statistics on this where men that tend to be six feet or one, you know, one hundred and eight centimetres or taller, they tend to have more leadership positions than men that are shorter than that.

But no one's going to question a man how he got to his role. They're going to say because he has a good degree, because he worked really hard and whatnot. But as soon as you see a female that presents in a way that maybe has either, you know, dresses a little bit more, maybe not eccentrically, but dresses a little bit with like brand names or has a certain way about her is more stereotypically beautiful. For some reason, it's the association that, oh, yeah, she, you know, usually it's implication that there's something going on that's inappropriate in the workplace. And that's why they got the role. If you get what I'm saying, right. Whereas if you don't necessarily see that for men and there's a for sure, it's so different how we objectify, you know, the different genders and understanding what does that mean in the workplace and how does it play out in different roles from junior to more senior roles, you know, throughout the organisation.

Sara: Yeah, I feel like there's so much to be said about how people's features, appearances, attractiveness level, how much they meet a beauty ideal influences their performance or progress within an organisation, even just in hiring and recruitment, right. And it's that idea of that halo effect of, you know, if you meet somebody that's beautiful, we inherently connect that with like, oh, you know, you look good. So you must therefore be good. Right. And so when we see someone that is maybe we perceive as beautiful, we're like, well, we immediately associate them as someone that probably is loyal, is trustworthy, is valuable, is all of those like positive things. It's like that positive association. We don't actually measure them based on their ability to fulfill a role. We just have those unconscious biases where we're like, okay, they're good. And that's why when you look at like people that are like celebrities and people like they're so beautiful, people immediately like, oh, they must be such a nice person. It's like, you don't know this person whatsoever. You've just seen them in a movie, in a magazine, on social media. And because they look good, we inherently can associate that with, oh, they must also be a good person, when actually that might not even be true. And for the most part probably isn't.

So.

Dimitra: When you know what's interesting about that too, is that I noticed it from like early on, even when it came to the recruiting practices, right, where a lot of times typically was like, yeah, let's do an interview face to face. And immediately, you can't help a judge or the person. And like, it's hardwired within us, where I think that you need to actually do a lot of work to get out of that mindset of saying, okay, I'm not going to judge this person because of what they're wearing or what they look like, or how they look like. Or how they walk or how they talk or, you know, whatever their hair colour is type of thing.

One thing that I've noticed, or like, I think that has helped a little bit with kind of being more open to remote work is having the ability to do a lot of more remote type interviews. So for me, one thing that I've implemented for years now in organisations that I've worked for is first interview is always a telephone interview, just right off the bat, like first interview is a telephone interview. Yes, I can see the name and like there's things that of course can have a little bit of bias in that. But personally, it's about, okay, you can't see the person, you're asking them questions to understand if they're going to be a good fit for the company, right? You're understanding a little bit more about their technical background, or whatever they've worked on in the past to see if they are a good match for the role. And then you can move into a video interview, right? Or a face to face interview. Give people the opportunity to also just ease into things and ease into the conversation or the interview, just on a phone, like based on the voice alone, and then kind of move into the visual aspect as well. And like I have found that that has helped a lot even with other hiring managers that I've worked with to just take away that visual component and really focus on what is the person actually saying to me, right? Because all you can do is focus on their voice, right? There's no visual. So it's like, okay, what are they actually saying? And what's your experience like? And are they a good fit for the company? And why do they want to work here and put those kind of more at the forefront and then move in to get to know because I mean, to be fair, it is the visual aspect can be important when it comes to the interview, so interviews and selecting candidates because body language, I think, plays a big role as well. Right? Like if you have someone across from you that you're interviewing, and they're, you know, maybe rolling their eyes, or they're staring into space, or they're really shut off, then that also does give you some nonverbal cues that, hey, maybe this person is not really interested in this role. And maybe we're wasting our time, right? Or if they are more eager, they can appear more genuinely interested, or they're smiling, or they're nodding, or they can show that they're actively listening. And that's what you're looking for in your organisation. 

You know, it's great to be able to see that as well. But I think one thing that I always pride myself on is making sure whatever you can do to take away as much information about the person's appearance as you can from the beginning and just genuinely assess them, as you said, too, on their actual ability and their desire to join the organisation. Right? To make sure it's a good fit for all sides. It's not just about, is this candidate right for us? It's are we a good, are we a good organisation for this candidate? Right? At least that's my belief in being able to have a more kind of well-rounded approach to talent management and acquisition and ensure you have people sticking around and that they're going to add value to your organisational culture, regardless of their background, where they're from, what other languages they speak, what religion they are. And in all of those things as well.

Sara: Yeah, when you were talking, you made me remember in previous roles when we would hire, I remember the managers and the leaders immediately, because the name's at the top of the CV, putting it into Facebook, putting it into Instagram, putting into LinkedIn. And obviously, you get an insight into maybe, you know, their picture and who they are. And we make judgments, you know, we make judgments within the first seven seconds. That's how we perform our first impression.

And in those seven seconds, how valuable is that insight to know if someone's going to be, you know, a cultural add to the company or not? You have no idea. You can't judge anyone based on that. And I remember, you know, when I would join, like, sessions to be like, you know, how do you build your workplace profile and like, personal branding and all this kind of stuff. And it was like, make all your like, social media profiles private, which I still do. And I think that's still valid as a thing to practise. But it's just so twisted, because the reason we're having to do that is because employers are checking those, maybe seeing that we've been on a beach drinking a margarita, or maybe we like skateboarding, or maybe we like, I don't know, doing parkour. I don't know. But those things mean that someone's seeing that and then immediately making a judgement about that person. And appearance will come into play with that, right? So, you know, in that particular scene, that someone's trying to sell those handbags. If they'd just emailed, they probably would have just got a blanket. No. But because they were physically there, and they were seen as attractive, and someone wanted to be in that, in that environment with them, they were able to kind of like start selling the handbags, which, you know, everyone's got to run a business. And if that's what works for that character, then fair play. Like, if she managed to sell some handbags, fantastic. But it shouldn't be based on that, right? It should be based on do people in the workplace need some handbags? Does this make sense, corporate wise, in terms of the way people are spending their time?

Dimitra: It doesn't.

Right? I'm sorry, why would you go to a paper selling company that has, you know, I mean, they're pretty evenly split to give them credit in terms of kind of the personnel there. But, you know, it just to me, it seems so random. Like, I can't even imagine being in any of my workplaces in the past. And having somebody kind of come in and be like, Would you like to buy handbags? Or like, I think it was it was so out there. And one of the things now that you were talking, it kind of triggered my memory to remember, when Michael says that you're like the Pam 6.0. He's like, you're a better version of Pam, Pam 6.0, which is just, again, like, such a, you know, you're objectifying the one woman, you're, you're causing the other woman to feel terrible about herself, because you've just compared her to somebody else. And I think that's something that definitely happens in the workplace. And a lot of times, I think that, you know, females in an organisation can be more pitted against each other based on who has the best looks or who has the, you know, the, the, like, better handbag or this wearing, you know, has the nicest hairstyle or whatever the case may be. Whereas with men, it's like, okay, you're all wearing, you know, whatever polo and jeans, or maybe you're wearing a suit to work depends what you do, or maybe you're in construction gear, whatever, whatever your business attire is. It's not no one is looking at a cable, what kind of brand are you wearing? Right? I think sure, in the more executive levels, and big organisations, of course, even for men, there can be emphasis, like, are you wearing a tailored suit, right? If it's a corporate type of role?

And is it, you know, do you have a $500 haircut? Yes, that happens as well. But I think that happens at a much higher level than it does for women. For women, it's like right from the beginning, like, what are your nails look like? And what are you wearing? And what perfume? What perfume are you wearing? And, you know, things like that, that I think, again, it kind of goes to show the whole notion of where Michaels is like, Pam, 6.0, like, it's not even Pam 2.0. Right? Like, I really want to emphasise that as well. It's not 2.0. It's 6.0, which is just, you know, for somebody hear, like, what a what a terrible, awful thing to have someone say that to you. And it's your boss, which then who are you gonna play to, right? Like, sure, you can go to HR, but that's not always that easy to handle as well. And obviously, in the case of the office, we know that that would never fly. Right? 

Which is it's sad, because I think that is actually an accurate representation of a significant number of workplaces, where you can go to HR to complain about your boss, because, you know, you might not necessarily win. And not to discourage me from doing that, it's just that you have to have all your facts, and you need to be very prepared to go make any sort of accusation. Because you never know if it's going to backfire, right? And it's, you know, sure, there's power in numbers, and there's power in having evidence to be able to back up what you're saying. But even that, it shouldn't be that hard, necessarily, right? You should have to build a whole case study of, you know, this person said this to me in the workplace, and let me, you know, say that it's inappropriate, we shouldn't have to have put that much effort into it, and get that to reality, right? But I did find that common, yeah, for sure.

Quite disturbing as well, to be honest. And you can see Pam just withering away, right? As I think anyone would, if they heard that. 

Sara: Absolutely. And I think that's such a valid point around the power dynamic, because it actually makes me remember this moment in a previous workplace where we were going to pitch to a potential new client.

And I worked in PR. So, you know, PR is very much about the way that you present yourself, and, you know, you want to set yourself up in a particular way. And I've always enjoyed wearing makeup, I wear makeup all the time. And I think on this particular day, I was also wearing makeup. And we were all talking about the things that we're going to wear. So like, you know, just chatting about that kind of stuff. And I think there's something to be said about, you know, wearing something that makes you feel confident and comfortable, rather than wearing something that somebody else tells you should be what you're wearing. Because then I feel like that kind of translates into actually then how you perform. Because if your clothes are uncomfortable, and they're not fitting you the way that you normally like, it will translate into maybe a poor performance. For the most part, maybe some people can get by that, but not me. And I remember this particular manager saying to me, you're going to wear makeup tomorrow, aren't you? In like a very serious way. And I remember, because I was so young at the time, not really questioning it or saying it, I was like, yeah, of course, like, yeah, of course, I'm gonna wear makeup. But obviously, when you come out of that situation, you're like, how messed up is it that, you know, be able to be taken on this really cool opportunity to pitch a new client and pitch a new opportunity? You know, there's certain things that are expected of me, physically, that don't actually show anything about my ability to do a job. It's like, and also, if I wore too much makeup, then that maybe, if I wore too much makeup, maybe that would be a critique, right? So as women, and even men now as well, there's that fine balance, right? It's like, you know, you've got to look put together, but not so put together, you're like arrogant and up yourself and so overly like loving your own identity and how you present. And then it's like, well, don't let yourself look too far gone that you look like you've let yourself go and that you don't care about the way that you look and don't look dishevelled. 

And then it's just, yeah, it's a really, really tricky place. And I think, just to point around that Pam 6.0, it's always about, not about you as an individual, what you feel and what you want to do is about how do you compare to your peers? How do you compare to this person? How do you compare to that person? And I think it's such a challenging way to be because social media feeds into that we're constantly scrolling and comparing ourselves. And, you know, I think that feeds into pushing ourselves into these beauty ideals, as we said, that are inherently racist, they're inherently sizeist, they're inherently ableist as well. And there's so many aspects of it that we're trying to fit a box that none of us are going to fit in, you know, because it was only made by probably like, you know, colonialists and, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's really difficult to see. And we see that then translate into the workplace and into who gets hired, who gets promoted, who gets opportunities. And it's really disappointing to see that continue in today's society. 

Dimitra: For sure.

And I think one of those things is that, as you mentioned, too, about social media, I know we had briefly touched on this, as well. And I told you, I find this so fascinating, right? It was the whole, it's currently unfolding, right? We're in May of 2024. And we're seeing this new trend on TikTok, where there's that soundbite that's, you know, kind of correct me if I'm wrong, because I could be not fully getting the words, right. But it's, it goes on the list of like, I'm looking for a minute in finance, trust fund, 6’ 5, blue eyes.. And it's becoming now like a club anthem, like there's huge DJs in the world that are literally playing the soundbite over and over again, right? As now, you know, we're coaching some where people are going to clubs again and, and whatnot. And it's so interesting to me because, again, it's that whole notion of historically, the objectification has been more toward women, right? I think that's, hopefully, people can all agree on that. I think there's a lot of evidence to prove that. But it's interesting you hear a sound like that, or, you know, a TikTok, you see on something like that, where all of a sudden, it's like, you know, at first you hear like, oh, catch your beat and like, yeah, like looking for a man in finance with a trust fund and 6’ 5 and blue eyes, whatever, right? And it's interesting because now it's like, wait, so it's a woman objectifying men. And it's so interesting to me, again, from my lens, maybe average person could care less and they're like, I love this song. And yeah, I want a man in finance, whatever, right? But like, from my perspective, it's more like, whoa, wait a second, like, this actually sounds really bad because so if he doesn't have a trust fund, like, okay, I mean, the finance part, whatever, right? Work is work. But like the trust fund, I find interesting. Then the whole 6’ 5.. I mean, who, how many men are actually 6 foot 5, right? Which that's like, I don't even know, like two and at least two metres, two and a half metres, probably tall, right? I'm sure half the NBA. Yes, you can get those people for sure. That's kind of your best bet. But then also like the blue eyes, which again, going back to like the Eurocentric features, right? So you're looking for someone that's tall, that historically has not been at that height level, is not historically found in people that are, you know, white or more Eurocentric, right? Where or from a European background. And then but then the blue eyes is so it goes, I think it was what we're talking about, like, trying to check all these boxes, but like, it doesn't always add up. Like, it's really hard to find that combination, right? Forget it. I mean, I'm not even sorry. That's one thing, because like, that's all other things. I mean, it's a really interesting issue, right? But like, just from the appearance alone, I just thought that was so fascinating. And I know I told you, I wanted to briefly just chat about because it's so timely, like it's happening now. And it's, you know, people all over the world are like singing this song, literally at clubs.

Sara: This hype bias is huge. And it's something that's existed for not even just in recent years, it's existed for centuries. And, you know, it's, it's well known that the taller a man is, the more opportunities they're awarded in life. There's a privilege that comes with being that much taller.

Unfortunately, on average, men that are taller over six foot actually live shorter lives, because I guess their heart is doing more work. So it's actually really sad when you think about all these tall people.

But it's, it's interesting, because I remember a family member saying to me the other day that they got into a relationship with someone, and they almost like, kind of pulled me aside and were like, just so you know, they're like five foot five. And I was like, I don't know why that's relevant, but thanks for the warning. I was like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Like, if I didn't know that, I wasn't gonna be like, oh my goodness, wow, someone that is under six foot, and they're a man.

And it's really interesting. And I think also, like when we think of social media and dating apps, I often hear people saying that they really want to find a man who is six foot plus. And you hear stories of men adding inches onto their height on these apps. And when they live, they're actually catfishing in some respect in their height. And that's one is not great to lie, but two the feeling of having to lie about your height feels so, so wrong to them. Like, it's really sad. And we're putting so much pressure on people that you know, you're not worthy unless you're over six foot is is bizarre to me. Yeah.

Dimitra: It is for sure. When that that's the thing I think where it's also you know, people in leadership or many leadership positions are typically how over six feet, right over 180. So it's just it's so interesting to see how that plays into that as well. And I find that again, like going back to kind of early in the conversation where the objectification that occurs, it occurs for both men and women. But I think and I don't even have started into beyond that, I think, you know, for the sake of the little time we have together left, but it's one of those things where for individuals that, you know, your either going to be if you're a man, you have to be a certain height if you're a woman has to be in size. And it's just so interesting to see, again, the objectification that exists, and just the stereotypes that exist with that. And what does it mean? And yeah, it can be very, I think detrimental to people's mental health, what they don't live up to, whatever this stereotype has to be. And that's where it's the job of other people.

You know, hopefully people like us where we can go and say like, No, we, we shouldn't be judging people based on their appearance, whether it's because of their race or the colour of their skin or their hair or their eyes, or their height or their size, whatever the case may be. I didn't mean to make that into a rhyme, by the way, I just heard it back. I said it. I'll make my own TikTok clip, I'm just kidding. But it's one of those things where it shouldn't be happening. And I think that the more that people in position of power, or position in when I mean power, meaning of people in that are hiring managers or HR managers, like it had when it comes to the work, like it has to start from those individuals getting really the proper training to understand like there's there's so many biases in recruiting, get rid of them, but you have to train people on understanding what those biases are, and understanding how to overcome them, right? 

Like it has to come from a place of knowledge and understanding and training. Because I think a lot of people are genuinely ignorant in in a and I mean that in a positive way, right? Like it just they just don't know, or they don't realise it, right? Like there's there's subconscious biases, we don't even know are happening when they're happening. But I think people that can and are in a position to impact change. I think that we owe each other people to do to make that change, right? And do something about it and educate people. And if you're an HR, educate your hiring managers to say like, no, this is we're going to do the interview processes where we're going to try to eliminate as much of the bias as we possibly can. And you need to focus on the script. Like even for me in the past, I've said, these are the questions we're going to ask, right? I mean, coming in agreement, obviously, and make sure everyone's on board with them. But it's more like, don't stray from these questions. Like you need to have structured interviews. And yes, we can leave some room towards the end of the interview process for for some more unstructured questions. But to make it fair for everyone and make sure everyone has the same exact opportunity, you need to have structured interviews, you need to have the same people involved, you need to have education provided in training for the hiring manager so that they can focus on the individual's ability and not just like their appearance or are they going to be somebody I want to get drinks with have to work on a Friday evening, right? Like that's not to me, that's not okay. And I think it comes down to like, again, I think it's a good thing to have a good time. Down to like, again, whoever is in a position to make a change should genuinely consider trying to be part of a change for a more fair and equitable environment, especially in the workforce for all of us, right? Because I think we all deserve opportunities for work, right? And we have be successful in whatever career we happen to choose and not have that being withheld because we're not a certain height or a certain size or a skin colour.

Sara: Mic drop moment. I feel like that is a beautiful place to like wrap up and just be like this. Yeah, such a great takeaway for listeners in terms of how they then move on and think about kind of de-biasing the recruitment and hiring and just how we treat people, right? You know, expecting people to fit into boxes that they shouldn't have to and there's no real pressure for that.

Before we say bye to our listeners, something I'm asking all my guests is obviously Michael Scott in the show has World's Best Boss mug that he gifted himself. And essentially, if you were to buy yourself a World's Best Something mug, what would your say? 

Dimitra: That's such a great question.

I think that one of the things that I would like to think I'm good at is listening. So maybe I would say World's Best Listener. And I mean that when I mean about listening, I mean like being very empathetic and trying to really understand where people are coming from and taking different perspectives and educating myself. But to do that, you have to actually be able to listen to people and really kind of take their experiences in and try to see, okay, what is their world like? And then by listening to them, I think that's what then helps not only my education in terms of expanding my awareness of and what's going on around me and what other people experiences are like, but also then being able to then essentially share that with other people, right? Or have an opportunity such as, you know, this wonderful podcast where maybe I'm able to shed some light on experiences, not just of my own, but what other people are experiencing through and hopefully there resonates with others. So I would like to think I'm a great listener. Hopefully, people can agree. So we'll see. But I think that's the... Yeah, so I usually live on LinkedIn. I would say that's kind of my kind of number one hub. So I do have a website as well, which is my name, DimitraDimitropoulou.com that people can find me and reach out also. But even LinkedIn, again, Dimitra Dimitropoulou on LinkedIn, you'll kind of find me. This is my headshot typically. That's on there. Pretty easy to find. But yeah, I kind of tend to stick on those and would love always to connect with people and always happy to, you know, wherever I can help out. I also do a lot of mentoring through various programs. ADPList is one of them. So people can find me on ADPList.com as well for just offering some free advice. But yeah, those are kind of my main hubs, the website LinkedIn and ADPList.

Sara: Long.

But this has been truly wonderful. And I'm just so grateful for you coming on and talking and sharing your perspective. Because yes, it's been a fascinating podcast. And I've really enjoyed myself. And I'm sure our listeners have had a good time as well. So yeah, just thank you. And yeah, thanks to our listeners for tuning in for another episode. And hopefully, we'll see you in the next one. Thanks, everyone.